Is God Designed?

[Apologiaphoenix]

Who made God?

Link

[Jim B.]

Who made God?

Link

I'm not sure I follow this part. Could you unpack this a little bit more? I think I see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure.

That God is complex and that complex things need causes at least as complex as they are is an argument that Dawkins has used for years. I agree that it's a bad argument.

I think Plantinga pointed out that something can be complex as far as its properties but simple in terms of its substance or essential nature. I think the argument can be made that this is the case with God since God is immaterial and His substance is not made of parts. An analogy would be my consciousness which is essentially immaterial and thus simple but has many complex properties.

[Apologiaphoenix]

What is difficult about the first part?

For the second, I would disagree with Plantinga some. He doesn't hold to divine simplicity the way that I do.

[Jim B.]

What is difficult about the first part?

For the second, I would disagree with Plantinga some. He doesn't hold to divine simplicity the way that I do.

I think I understand that part now. The word "then" was ambiguous. Also, I'm not aware of many atheists who make the argument that complex things need designers, only that complex things need causes at least as complex as the effects. That was another slight confusion.

Even if Plantinga holds to a different idea of divine simplicity than you do, doesn't the same point about properties and substance hold? Anyway, I think it was Mortimer Adler who made that point and not Plantinga, although who it was is largely irrelevant, IMO,

[Apologiaphoenix]

I'm going on Dawkins's argument on who made God? If he says God is complex and therefore needs a designer, then complex things need designers and thus, DNA and everything else needs a designer. If they don't, then one could hypothetically say God is the exception.

I am not clear on Plantinga's view on the matter. I just know he isn't as strong on it as I would prefer he be.

[JimL]

Who made God?

Link

So, what is god made of, nothing?

[Christianbookworm]

God is spirit. What are numbers made of?

[JimL]

God is spirit. What are numbers made of?

And what exactly is spirit?

[Jim B.]

And what exactly is spirit?

What is anything made of? What is matter ultimately 'made of'? Fields of force? And what are they 'made of'? Causal dispositions? What is consciousness 'made of'? Are you a physicalist?

If there is a God, then God would be the basis of what things are ultimately made of, so asking what God is made of would make no sense. God would have aseity, would exist a se, independently, self-sufficiently as the ground and reason for things that are made of other things.

[JimL]

What is anything made of? What is matter ultimately 'made of'? Fields of force? And what are they 'made of'? Causal dispositions? What is consciousness 'made of'? Are you a physicalist?

If there is a God, then God would be the basis of what things are ultimately made of, so asking what God is made of would make no sense. God would have aseity, would exist a se, independently, self-sufficiently as the ground and reason for things that are made of other things.

Ex nihilo nihil fit

[Christianbookworm]

Ex nihilo nihil fit

So, how do you have an entire universe spring from nothing in your worldview? A quantum vacuum is still something. A multiverse is not scientifically testable. And what would be the cause for a multiverse? An eternal multiverse is more comlpicated than God. It can't explian morality or the fine tuning of the universe. And what do you care anyways? I don't go troll Hindu forums and bug them about the logical isues of reincarnation.

[JimL]

So, how do you have an entire universe spring from nothing in your worldview?

It doesn't, in my view.

A quantum vacuum is still something.

Sure is.

A multiverse is not scientifically testable.

Not testable, but reasonable.

And what would be the cause for a multiverse?

The substance out of which each particular universe emerged.

An eternal multiverse is more comlpicated than God.

I don't think so at all. The idea of multiverse conforms to our knowledge of existing things, of existence, the idea of an eternal god that speaks matter into existence, doesn't conform to anything we know.

It can't explian morality

No, only we can do that, because morality has only to do with us.

or the fine tuning of the universe.

That's for us to figure out. For one thing, if there are infinite many universes, then it isn't all that surprising that one of them, or many of them, are fine tuned just like our own is.

And what do you care anyways? I don't go troll Hindu forums and bug them about the logical isues of reincarnation.

So it doesn't bother you that people believe stupid stuff and go about spreading it like a virus? I'll bet that if belief in the spaghetti monster was being spread across the country you'd have plenty to say about it.

[Jim B.]

Ex nihilo nihil fit

That's a non-sequitur. Non-responsive to any of the questions I asked.

[Apologiaphoenix]

That's a non-sequitur. Non-responsive to any of the questions I asked.

Get used to it with JimL.

[JimL]

That's a non-sequitur. Non-responsive to any of the questions I asked.

My answer to your questions is that "nothing is made of nothing."