Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 71

Thread: Is God Designed?

  1. #1
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Corryton
    Faith
    Trinitarian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,501
    Amen (Given)
    295
    Amen (Received)
    3049

    Is God Designed?

    Who made God?

    Link

    -----

    Does the designer need a designer? Letís plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Iím not a proponent of Intelligent Design, but sometimes in this discussion, a claim comes up that if the universe needs a designer, well surely the designer must be so much more complex. If so, does He not need a designer? Many Christians get stumped by this line of argumentation that seems convincing, but it really isnít.

    For one thing, why would an atheist want to make this argument? If you want to say complex things need designers, then the theist can say ďThere you go. Then a designer is needed for the world we see around us.Ē It doesnít help that they usually ask ďWho made God?Ē rather than ďWhat made God?Ē

    But if you want to bypass that as an atheist and say that complex things donít need designers instead, then you have an argument that says God is a complex thing that needs a designer and complex things donít need designers. Take one option in this argument and you damage your position. Take the other and you destroy the very argument youíre making.

    But it gets worse for this argument. It is still often assumed that God is a complex thing, which is understandable since most Christians today donít study philosophy at all. Most of what we know about God then comes from Scripture, personal experience, and what we hear in church, not that those are all bad, but many times we read Scripture through our own bad philosophical lenses and the information from the other two isnít often the best.

    One of the ideas about God that has been held for centuries is that God is a simple being. Some of you reading that will be stunned. After all, you cannot really comprehend God. How can a being like that be simple? Simple doesnít mean easy to understand. It means just not composed of parts. Itís easy to understand this in material terms.

    For instance, I am writing this on a computer. You can take apart my computer bit by bit and if youíre really skilled, put it back together. If you went through a junkyard of computers, you could hypothetically take some material you find there and build your own computer.

    That works with material realities, including you and I, but how do we apply this to things that are immaterial. Humans might be composed of several materials, but what is something like an angel composed of since it is immaterial? In this case, an angel has its own nature and its own existence. Those are two things. The nature exists first in the mind of God and then it is granted existence by God.

    Then you get to God. God is no combination whatsoever. What it means to exist, to be, is what God is. He has no limitations on Him. Asking what made Him is like asking what created existence. Itís a nonsense question.

    Note also that this is not an argument for the existence of God at this point. Itís just an explanation of the nature of God. Being an atheist doesnít mean you have to believe it, but you should stop trying to use a bad argument.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  2. Amen Jim B. amen'd this post.
  3. #2
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    690
    Amen (Given)
    16
    Amen (Received)
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Who made God?

    Link

    ----

    But if you want to bypass that as an atheist and say that complex things donít need designers instead, then you have an argument that says God is a complex thing that needs a designer and complex things donít need designers. Take one option in this argument and you damage your position. Take the other and you destroy the very argument youíre making.
    I'm not sure I follow this part. Could you unpack this a little bit more? I think I see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure.

    That God is complex and that complex things need causes at least as complex as they are is an argument that Dawkins has used for years. I agree that it's a bad argument.

    But it gets worse for this argument. It is still often assumed that God is a complex thing, which is understandable since most Christians today donít study philosophy at all. Most of what we know about God then comes from Scripture, personal experience, and what we hear in church, not that those are all bad, but many times we read Scripture through our own bad philosophical lenses and the information from the other two isnít often the best.

    One of the ideas about God that has been held for centuries is that God is a simple being. Some of you reading that will be stunned. After all, you cannot really comprehend God. How can a being like that be simple? Simple doesnít mean easy to understand. It means just not composed of parts. Itís easy to understand this in material terms.

    For instance, I am writing this on a computer. You can take apart my computer bit by bit and if youíre really skilled, put it back together. If you went through a junkyard of computers, you could hypothetically take some material you find there and build your own computer.

    That works with material realities, including you and I, but how do we apply this to things that are immaterial. Humans might be composed of several materials, but what is something like an angel composed of since it is immaterial? In this case, an angel has its own nature and its own existence. Those are two things. The nature exists first in the mind of God and then it is granted existence by God.

    Then you get to God. God is no combination whatsoever. What it means to exist, to be, is what God is. He has no limitations on Him. Asking what made Him is like asking what created existence. Itís a nonsense question.

    Note also that this is not an argument for the existence of God at this point. Itís just an explanation of the nature of God. Being an atheist doesnít mean you have to believe it, but you should stop trying to use a bad argument.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters
    I think Plantinga pointed out that something can be complex as far as its properties but simple in terms of its substance or essential nature. I think the argument can be made that this is the case with God since God is immaterial and His substance is not made of parts. An analogy would be my consciousness which is essentially immaterial and thus simple but has many complex properties.

  4. #3
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Corryton
    Faith
    Trinitarian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,501
    Amen (Given)
    295
    Amen (Received)
    3049
    What is difficult about the first part?

    For the second, I would disagree with Plantinga some. He doesn't hold to divine simplicity the way that I do.

  5. #4
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    690
    Amen (Given)
    16
    Amen (Received)
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    What is difficult about the first part?

    For the second, I would disagree with Plantinga some. He doesn't hold to divine simplicity the way that I do.
    I think I understand that part now. The word "then" was ambiguous. Also, I'm not aware of many atheists who make the argument that complex things need designers, only that complex things need causes at least as complex as the effects. That was another slight confusion.

    Even if Plantinga holds to a different idea of divine simplicity than you do, doesn't the same point about properties and substance hold? Anyway, I think it was Mortimer Adler who made that point and not Plantinga, although who it was is largely irrelevant, IMO,

  6. #5
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Corryton
    Faith
    Trinitarian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,501
    Amen (Given)
    295
    Amen (Received)
    3049
    I'm going on Dawkins's argument on who made God? If he says God is complex and therefore needs a designer, then complex things need designers and thus, DNA and everything else needs a designer. If they don't, then one could hypothetically say God is the exception.

    I am not clear on Plantinga's view on the matter. I just know he isn't as strong on it as I would prefer he be.

  7. #6
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    15,943
    Amen (Given)
    1955
    Amen (Received)
    1607
    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Who made God?

    Link

    -----

    Does the designer need a designer? Letís plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Iím not a proponent of Intelligent Design, but sometimes in this discussion, a claim comes up that if the universe needs a designer, well surely the designer must be so much more complex. If so, does He not need a designer? Many Christians get stumped by this line of argumentation that seems convincing, but it really isnít.

    For one thing, why would an atheist want to make this argument? If you want to say complex things need designers, then the theist can say ďThere you go. Then a designer is needed for the world we see around us.Ē It doesnít help that they usually ask ďWho made God?Ē rather than ďWhat made God?Ē

    But if you want to bypass that as an atheist and say that complex things donít need designers instead, then you have an argument that says God is a complex thing that needs a designer and complex things donít need designers. Take one option in this argument and you damage your position. Take the other and you destroy the very argument youíre making.

    But it gets worse for this argument. It is still often assumed that God is a complex thing, which is understandable since most Christians today donít study philosophy at all. Most of what we know about God then comes from Scripture, personal experience, and what we hear in church, not that those are all bad, but many times we read Scripture through our own bad philosophical lenses and the information from the other two isnít often the best.

    One of the ideas about God that has been held for centuries is that God is a simple being. Some of you reading that will be stunned. After all, you cannot really comprehend God. How can a being like that be simple? Simple doesnít mean easy to understand. It means just not composed of parts. Itís easy to understand this in material terms.

    For instance, I am writing this on a computer. You can take apart my computer bit by bit and if youíre really skilled, put it back together. If you went through a junkyard of computers, you could hypothetically take some material you find there and build your own computer.

    That works with material realities, including you and I, but how do we apply this to things that are immaterial. Humans might be composed of several materials, but what is something like an angel composed of since it is immaterial? In this case, an angel has its own nature and its own existence. Those are two things. The nature exists first in the mind of God and then it is granted existence by God.

    Then you get to God. God is no combination whatsoever. What it means to exist, to be, is what God is. He has no limitations on Him. Asking what made Him is like asking what created existence. Itís a nonsense question.

    Note also that this is not an argument for the existence of God at this point. Itís just an explanation of the nature of God. Being an atheist doesnít mean you have to believe it, but you should stop trying to use a bad argument.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters
    So, what is god made of, nothing?

  8. #7
    tWebber Christianbookworm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Northern Hemisphere
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    9,549
    Amen (Given)
    5652
    Amen (Received)
    1832
    God is spirit. What are numbers made of?
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

  9. #8
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    15,943
    Amen (Given)
    1955
    Amen (Received)
    1607
    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    God is spirit. What are numbers made of?
    And what exactly is spirit?

  10. #9
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    690
    Amen (Given)
    16
    Amen (Received)
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    And what exactly is spirit?
    What is anything made of? What is matter ultimately 'made of'? Fields of force? And what are they 'made of'? Causal dispositions? What is consciousness 'made of'? Are you a physicalist?

    If there is a God, then God would be the basis of what things are ultimately made of, so asking what God is made of would make no sense. God would have aseity, would exist a se, independently, self-sufficiently as the ground and reason for things that are made of other things.

  11. #10
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    15,943
    Amen (Given)
    1955
    Amen (Received)
    1607
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    What is anything made of? What is matter ultimately 'made of'? Fields of force? And what are they 'made of'? Causal dispositions? What is consciousness 'made of'? Are you a physicalist?

    If there is a God, then God would be the basis of what things are ultimately made of, so asking what God is made of would make no sense. God would have aseity, would exist a se, independently, self-sufficiently as the ground and reason for things that are made of other things.
    Ex nihilo nihil fit

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •