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Pelosi: 'I knew Bush lied us into the Iraq War but that's not grounds for impeachment

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  • Pelosi: 'I knew Bush lied us into the Iraq War but that's not grounds for impeachment

    It's lawlessness and lying all the way down.

    There have been recent claims of constant lying about the war in Afghanistan. They could very well be true, because lying is the norm.
    Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

  • #2
    Nancy Pelosi is a terrible leader - she is spineless, doesn't hold the Republicans to account for their crimes, is inept at political strategy, is inept media appearances and messaging, is often nasty towards the progressive-wing of the Democratic party while kowtowing to the centrist/corporatist-wing of the Democratic party.

    I wasn't following US politics closely enough during the Bush era to have a personal opinion on whether Bush should have been impeached at the time (though putting VP Darth Cheney into the presidency in his place doesn't sound like a good idea as he was equally involved in the crimes and was worse than Bush), though hindsight tells us that the Bush admin certainly committed enough crimes to warrant it (e.g. lied their way into the Iraq war against a country they knew hadn't attacked America, which killed >200,000 civilians; ran a torture program that achieved nothing useful but did torture an innocent person to death; had advanced warning of Bin Laden's attack but didn't take sufficient steps to prevent it, etc).

    If Pelosi, through her role on the intelligence committee, genuinely knew for sure at the time that the Bush administration was lying about Iraq, and didn't do anything about them doing it, then she's even more incompetent and spineless than even I give her credit for (and I give her a lot of credit at being useless). Though I suspect it's a case of her becoming more sure with hindsight: I suspect she thought at the time that the Bush administration might be lying, and a decade and a half later when we know they were lying, Pelosi's convinced herself that she totally knew it all along. But suspecting something, and being sure of something, are different things, and that might have been why she was unwilling to act at the time.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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    • #3
      Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
      It's lawlessness and lying all the way down.

      There have been recent claims of constant lying about the war in Afghanistan. They could very well be true, because lying is the norm.
      \
      well she is a moron. Bush never claimed there were nuclear weapons in Iraq. Just "Weapons of Mass Destruction" as far as I know. He was worried more about chemical weapons.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
        It's lawlessness and lying all the way down.

        There have been recent claims of constant lying about the war in Afghanistan. They could very well be true, because lying is the norm.
        There is no real comparison here ... except for the word 'lying'.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          Nancy Pelosi is a terrible leader - she is spineless, doesn't hold the Republicans to account for their crimes, is inept at political strategy, is inept media appearances and messaging, is often nasty towards the progressive-wing of the Democratic party while kowtowing to the centrist/corporatist-wing of the Democratic party.

          I wasn't following US politics closely enough during the Bush era to have a personal opinion on whether Bush should have been impeached at the time (though putting VP Darth Cheney into the presidency in his place doesn't sound like a good idea as he was equally involved in the crimes and was worse than Bush), though hindsight tells us that the Bush admin certainly committed enough crimes to warrant it (e.g. lied their way into the Iraq war against a country they knew hadn't attacked America, which killed >200,000 civilians; ran a torture program that achieved nothing useful but did torture an innocent person to death; had advanced warning of Bin Laden's attack but didn't take sufficient steps to prevent it, etc).

          If Pelosi, through her role on the intelligence committee, genuinely knew for sure at the time that the Bush administration was lying about Iraq, and didn't do anything about them doing it, then she's even more incompetent and spineless than even I give her credit for (and I give her a lot of credit at being useless). Though I suspect it's a case of her becoming more sure with hindsight: I suspect she thought at the time that the Bush administration might be lying, and a decade and a half later when we know they were lying, Pelosi's convinced herself that she totally knew it all along. But suspecting something, and being sure of something, are different things, and that might have been why she was unwilling to act at the time.

          I think that is the more likely thing. There are significant differences - as I see it - between exaggerating the confidence in our intelligence based on both a belief in what was implied by that intelligence and a desire to stop an evil in the world, and actual straight up lies about what one is doing and planning to do so as to cover up illegal or immoral activity whose target is nothing more than personal gain.

          Bottom line: there are way too many false equivalences being tossed about in the effort to make Trump look 'better'.

          ETA: for those that will try to twist my comments into some sort of justification for lying, you would be wrong. I am not justifying Bush's handling of that intelligence (e.g. the WMD intelligence), I'm saying what Bush did is not the moral equivalent of what Trump has done in Ukraine. Specifically that Trump's actions can not be excused if we excuse Bush, because what Trump has done is in another category, and a good deal worse morally because it has not an ounce of noble motivation. It is purely and completely self focused in its conception and implementation and at the expense of the national interests of the US.
          Last edited by oxmixmudd; 12-12-2019, 09:04 AM.
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            I think that is the more likely thing. There are significant differences - as I see it - between exaggerating the confidence in our intelligence based on both a belief in what was implied by that intelligence and a desire to stop an evil in the world, and actual straight up lies about what one is doing and planning to do so as to cover up illegal or immoral activity whose target is nothing more than personal gain.

            Bottom line: there are way too many false equivalences being tossed about in the effort to make Trump look 'better'.

            ETA: for those that will try to twist my comments into some sort of justification for lying, you would be wrong. I am not justifying Bush's handling of that intelligence (e.g. the WMD intelligence), I'm saying what Bush did is not the moral equivalent of what Trump has done in Ukraine. Specifically that Trump's actions can not be excused if we excuse Bush, because what Trump has done is in another category, and a good deal worse morally because it has not an ounce of noble motivation. It is purely and completely self focused in its conception and implementation and at the expense of the national interests of the US.
            If your argument had been something like maybe she didn't do it because she knew Cheney was worse, that's one thing. But to compare what Bush did to what Trump did (EVEN assuming Trump did it for his own personal gain, which is just an assumption) proves without a doubt you have TDS to a ridiculous degree.

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            • #7
              Btw, documents similar to the Pentagon Papers also show the Afghanistan war was/is a complete and utter lie. But, of course, this makes Bush, Obama/Biden, and Trump complicit (the former two much more so), so I don't think we'll hear much about it in the press, at least not as much as impeachment, or even discussed on this board.
              Last edited by seanD; 12-12-2019, 01:04 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                If your argument had been something like maybe she didn't do it because she knew Cheney was worse, that's one thing. But to compare what Bush did to what Trump did (EVEN assuming Trump did it for his own personal gain, which is just an assumption) proves without a doubt you have TDS to a ridiculous degree.
                TDS is nothing more than a derogatory term invented by nasty, childlike people to disparage otherwise good people that disagree with them.

                But if you have something to say that is not otherwise buried in a school yard taunt, I'll be glad to discuss it.
                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 12-12-2019, 01:24 PM.
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  TDS is nothing more than a derogatory term invented by nasty, childlike people to disparage otherwise good people that disagree with them.

                  But if you have something to say that is not otherwise buried in a school yard taunt, I'll be glad to discuss it.
                  Nah, I'm done discussing the issue of impeachment with you. This was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. You're irrational.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seanD View Post
                    Btw, documents similar to the Pentagon Papers also show the Afghanistan war was/is a complete and utter lie.
                    Huh? Didn't the Afghan war originate after 9/11 when the Taliban who controlled Afghanistan refused to hand over the Al Qaeda members based in their country after Al Qaeda did 9/11? What part of that was a lie?

                    Or do you mean current excuses for why US troops need to remain in the country today are a lie?
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      Huh? Didn't the Afghan war originate after 9/11 when the Taliban who controlled Afghanistan refused to hand over the Al Qaeda members based in their country after Al Qaeda did 9/11? What part of that was a lie?

                      Or do you mean current excuses for why US troops need to remain in the country today are a lie?
                      Nearly 18 years since the start of the war in Afghanistan and 16 years since the U.S. invasion of Iraq, majorities of U.S. military veterans say those wars were not worth fighting, according to a new Pew Research Center survey of veterans. A parallel survey of American adults finds that the public shares those sentiments.
                      About two-thirds of veterans say the way in Iraq was not worth fighting

                      Among veterans, 64% say the war in Iraq was not worth fighting considering the costs versus the benefits to the United States, while 33% say it was. The general public’s views are nearly identical: 62% of Americans overall say the Iraq War wasn’t worth it and 32% say it was. Similarly, majorities of both veterans (58%) and the public (59%) say the war in Afghanistan was not worth fighting. About four-in-ten or fewer say it was worth fighting.

                      Veterans who served in either Iraq or Afghanistan are no more supportive of those engagements than those who did not serve in these wars. And views do not differ based on rank or combat experience.

                      Source
                      Did it make us any safer? I honestly don't know. Based on these revelations, how can you even be certain anything at all they've stated about the war, even the beginning of the war about the Taliban, is true and accurate? I never served there, but apparently the men and women who actually did serve there say it wasn't worth it. Now when I couple that with this new information, well, there ya go. Since I don't know what is true and what isn't at this point, to me, that's enough to constitute the whole war as a lie

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        Did it make us any safer? I honestly don't know. Based on these revelations, how can you even be certain anything at all they've stated about the war, even the beginning of the war about the Taliban, is true and accurate? I never served there, but apparently the men and women who actually did serve there say it wasn't worth it. Now when I couple that with this new information, well, there ya go. Since I don't know what is true and what isn't at this point, to me, that's enough to constitute the whole war as a lie
                        Whether or not Osama bin Laden should have been hunted down and removed from this earth isn't a question. The issue was with what happened in Iraq. The removal of Saddam Hussein sparked the rise of ISIS.
                        A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                        George Bernard Shaw

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                          Whether or not Osama bin Laden should have been hunted down and removed from this earth isn't a question. The issue was with what happened in Iraq. The removal of Saddam Hussein sparked the rise of ISIS.
                          Killing Laden (which happened much later, and not in Afghanistan) is one thing. Staying in a war so that it becomes the longest war in US history, a war that costs thousands of US lives and cost billions upon billions of dollars, and a war where we've been lied to about ever since (so say the official leaked docs), is whole other thing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            If your argument had been something like maybe she didn't do it because she knew Cheney was worse, that's one thing. But to compare what Bush did to what Trump did (EVEN assuming Trump did it for his own personal gain, which is just an assumption) proves without a doubt you have TDS to a ridiculous degree.
                            Pelosi didn't call for impeachment of Bush over the Iraq war scam because she knew it wouldn't fly, that it would be divisive, but most important of all, because it would be detrimental to the country. She didn't know for sure at the time that the Bush administration was lying any more than any one else knew for sure, and 80 something Democrat House members and nearly half Democratic Senators voted for the Iraq war authorization. Sometimes the right thing to do is not necessarily in the best interests of the country, a fact which then makes it the wrong thing to do. This case with Trump is not like that, impeachment is both the right thing to do, and it's in the best interests of the country to rid it of the lawless, wannabe dictator before he does even more damage to our democratic institutions.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Pelosi didn't call for impeachment of Bush over the Iraq war scam because she knew it wouldn't fly, that it would be divisive, but most important of all, because it would be detrimental to the country. She didn't know for sure at the time that the Bush administration was lying any more than any one else knew for sure, and 80 something Democrat House members and nearly half Democratic Senators voted for the Iraq war authorization. Sometimes the right thing to do is not necessarily in the best interests of the country, a fact which then makes it the wrong thing to do. This case with Trump is not like that, impeachment is both the right thing to do, and it's in the best interests of the country to rid it of the lawless, wannabe dictator before he does even more damage to our democratic institutions.
                              The impeachment won't "fly" in the senate and Pelosi obviously knows this much more so. You're absolutely delusional if you think the Iraq war is even the moral equivalent of Trump's phone call.

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