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England's elections

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  • England's elections

    So, exit polls in England show a landslide victory for the Conservatives. Good job England!!
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

  • #2
    So NOW do they finally get to exit the EU like the citizens want? Or will that be delayed for another decade?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      So NOW do they finally get to exit the EU like the citizens want? Or will that be delayed for another decade?
      According to the BBC staff I am watching, it will happen in Jan.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        According to the BBC staff I am watching, it will happen in Jan.
        00000000000000aaa3a.gif

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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        • #5
          Election results – Boris Johnson to win biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher as poll claims 86 majority

          https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/105412...dict-tory-win/

          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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          • #6
            Now we see what they do with it.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Now we see what they do with it.
              Lock up FF in the Tower of London?
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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              • #8
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Lock up FF in the Tower of London?
                Play nice.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  Play nice.
                  Ah, being locked up in the Tower of London isn't so bad. It's guarded by those guys in funny hats who just stand there and don't actually do anything, so it's pretty easy to escape from.

                  (Joking aside, I understand those guards know their business and will lay you out in an instant if the need arises.)
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Picking nits, but technically it was more than just England who took part in this GE- but yes, England is unfortunately going to be mostly to blame for another 5 years of Tory rule, with a majority no less.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
                      Picking nits, but technically it was more than just England who took part in this GE- but yes, England is unfortunately going to be mostly to blame for another 5 years of Tory rule, with a majority no less.
                      That's one of the weaknesses of the parliamentary system. With so many parties a unified entity that is large enough can take the majority pretty easily.

                      On the bright side it is likely to settle the Brexit issue, not the way that you'd like but at least the country has a chance to start moving forward again.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        That's one of the weaknesses of the parliamentary system. With so many parties a unified entity that is large enough can take the majority pretty easily.
                        I think you're mixing up several things. What you propose--having a lot of parties allowing one entity to take the majority--has nothing to do with the parliamentary system. Parliamentary systems can be dominated by just two parties the same way the US is, whereas non-parliamentary systems can have a lot of different political parties. Various factors decide whether a country is two-party or true multiparty, probably the biggest being whether it's first-past-the-post or not.

                        So what you seem to be referring to is the weakness of a multiparty system as opposed to a two-party system ("multiparty" here refers to there being at least three political parties that are legitimate forces, compared to how the US really only has two right now). However, I do not think that is true either here. While the UK isn't as strong of a two-party system as the US is, it nevertheless has two parties that dominate discourse. Most of the time, either Labour or Conservative can form a majority by themselves--just like how the Democrats or Republicans get majorities by themselves. Elections where neither Labour or Conservative has a majority and has to form a coalition are an exception. It isn't because it's multiparty that a majority is easily gained by one party--it's in fact the opposite, it's because it's multiparty that you actually have occasional elections where neither Conservative nor Labour wins a majority.

                        So I don't think this has anything to do with it being a parliament or even being multiparty, especially because the UK is only "multiparty" by comparison to the US. Compared to a lot of other countries in Europe (France, Germany, Italy), it's very much a two-party system like the US.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                          I think you're mixing up several things. What you propose--having a lot of parties allowing one entity to take the majority--has nothing to do with the parliamentary system. Parliamentary systems can be dominated by just two parties the same way the US is, whereas non-parliamentary systems can have a lot of different political parties. Various factors decide whether a country is two-party or true multiparty, probably the biggest being whether it's first-past-the-post or not.

                          So what you seem to be referring to is the weakness of a multiparty system as opposed to a two-party system ("multiparty" here refers to there being at least three political parties that are legitimate forces, compared to how the US really only has two right now). However, I do not think that is true either here. While the UK isn't as strong of a two-party system as the US is, it nevertheless has two parties that dominate discourse. Most of the time, either Labour or Conservative can form a majority by themselves--just like how the Democrats or Republicans get majorities by themselves. Elections where neither Labour or Conservative has a majority and has to form a coalition are an exception. It isn't because it's multiparty that a majority is easily gained by one party--it's in fact the opposite, it's because it's multiparty that you actually have occasional elections where neither Conservative nor Labour wins a majority.

                          So I don't think this has anything to do with it being a parliament or even being multiparty, especially because the UK is only "multiparty" by comparison to the US. Compared to a lot of other countries in Europe (France, Germany, Italy), it's very much a two-party system like the US.
                          No. Parliamentary systems are multiparty by design. It's possible, I suppose, to make one two party or for a true two party to develop (rare as far as I know) but that's exceptional, not the rule. It has to do with the voting systems but working parliamentary systems are multiparty (the dysfunctional single party shows up but those are usually parliamentary in name only).

                          And yes, as long as no one entity is both large enough and unified enough, a parliamentary system will be more fragmented - that's considered one of its strengths as it's considered more representative. I'm dubious of that with the UK's system but not well enough versed that I'd argue the point.

                          But, no, it is not a two party system like the US - it's conversions are completely different and so are its voting systems. Yes, there's a superficial resemblance but that's all it is.
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

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                          • #14
                            Glorious victory. Boris will make Britain Great again.
                            Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              No. Parliamentary systems are multiparty by design.
                              How? I see no way they are more inclined towards being multiparty than a congress is.

                              First, I should explain the definitions being used here. As I understand it, a "parliament" is a system where the Executive is beholden to the legislature. A prime minister is the classic example, as they are elected directly by the legislature. In contrast, a congress is a system where the Executive is separate and independent, like in the United States where the President is elected by the citizenry (well, close enough for our purposes, at least). Sometimes countries that technically have an independent Executive still get classified as a Parliament if the Executive is very weak in power.

                              But I do not see how the Executive being elected by the people or by the legislature plays any role as to whether something is multiparty or not.

                              It's possible, I suppose, to make one two party or for a true two party to develop (rare as far as I know) but that's exceptional, not the rule. It has to do with the voting systems but working parliamentary systems are multiparty (the dysfunctional single party shows up but those are usually parliamentary in name only).

                              And yes, as long as no one entity is both large enough and unified enough, a parliamentary system will be more fragmented - that's considered one of its strengths as it's considered more representative. I'm dubious of that with the UK's system but not well enough versed that I'd argue the point.

                              But, no, it is not a two party system like the US - it's conversions are completely different and so are its voting systems. Yes, there's a superficial resemblance but that's all it is.
                              If you mean it's not "like the US" in that you get people elected who aren't Conservative or Labour and sometimes neither Conservative nor Labour has a majority by themselves, sure. But most of the time it basically is a two-party system. You have two clear major choices, and one of them normally gets a majority on its own. Canada has a similar situation, in which it's always the Liberal Party or Conservative Party that has a majority by itself (far more often the Liberal Party than the Conservative Party, though).

                              As I noted, it isn't as extreme as the US; there are elected officials who aren't Conservative or Labour (even if there aren't that many) and occasionally you end up with Conservative or Labour needing to find a coalition partner, like in the previous election. But it hardly counts as multiparty in my view--again, it's "multiparty" in comparison to the US, but not really "multiparty" itself. I've certainly seen people in Britain wanting a "third way" rather than having to choose between Conservative and Labour.

                              The actual reason parliaments seem to have a better track record at being multiparty appears to me not to be that they're parliament, but that so many parliamentary countries do not use first-past-the-post voting, which inherently favors a two-party system. Indeed, the few parliamentary countries that do use First Past the Post, such as Canada and the UK, are the ones that end up being two party systems.
                              Last edited by Terraceth; 12-13-2019, 01:39 AM.

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