Confederate flags again

[simplicio]

Disagree that racists and white supremacists hijacked the Confederate flag to be symbol it did not carry. It was originally a symbol of the secessioist South that believed in the supremacy of the white race, and perpetuation of slavery based on state rights.

My point is that it has to be addressed because the counter argument (almost) always includes the assertion that it was hijacked.

At each point in history since the Civil War, the white supremacist was always included as part of the background, whether one looks at the ones who carried the banner or the onlookers or witnesses.

[shunyadragon]

My point is that it has to be addressed because the counter argument (almost) always includes the assertion that it was hijacked.

Sure, anyone can assert anything under the sun including the justification of the NAzi flag as a cultural symbol. The evidence is clear that the use of the Confederate flag has been the same as it was first designed as the Battle Flag of the Confederacy as it used by the White supremacists.

At each point in history since the Civil War, the white supremacist was always included as part of the background, whether one looks at the ones who carried the banner or the onlookers or witnesses.

Looking at both is worth the effort.

[simplicio]

Sure, anyone can assert anything under the sun including the justification of the NAzi flag as a cultural symbol. The evidence is clear that the use of the Confederate flag has been the same as it was first designed as the Battle Flag of the Confederacy as it used by the White supremacists.



Looking at both is worth the effort.

How do you think most people respond to those who claim that the Nazi banner can be salvaged and used a symbol for virtue? In other words, what label would you think people would place on the person who waves the Nazi emblem calling it virtuous?

[JimL]

How do you think most people respond to those who claim that the Nazi banner can be salvaged and used a symbol for virtue? In other words, what label would you think people would place on the person who waves the Nazi emblem calling it virtuous?

The Battle flag of the confederacy is a treasonous symbol of insurrection against the U.S. whether you believe it was about the continuation of slavery or not. That's why you recognise it as a Battle Flag!

[shunyadragon]

How do you think most people respond to those who claim that the Nazi banner can be salvaged and used a symbol for virtue? In other words, what label would you think people would place on the person who waves the Nazi emblem calling it virtuous?

The same questions may be asked of those that believe the Confederate flag can be salvaged and used as a symbol of virtue.

[Bill the Cat]

The Battle flag of the confederacy is a treasonous symbol of insurrection against the U.S. whether you believe it was about the continuation of slavery or not. That's why you recognise it as a Battle Flag!

The flag of France is a treasonous symbol of insurrection against the rightful monarchy of France.

[JimL]

The flag of France is a treasonous symbol of insurrection against the rightful monarchy of France.

So, you would have supported the Souths insurrection in order to continue the institution of slavery. Got ya!

[Bill the Cat]

So, you would have supported the Souths insurrection in order to continue the institution of slavery. Got ya!

Oh no. You got me all wrong. My family fought for the North.

But I have no problem allowing others the freedom of speech to display whatever flag they choose, and the freedom to call those people idiots.

[oxmixmudd]

The flag of France is a treasonous symbol of insurrection against the rightful monarchy of France.

... that as also long since lost any meaningful association with that sort of thinking. It now stands in the French culture as a symbol of their own revolution against an oppressive and abusive monarchy, of the rights of the people to rule themselves, much as the US flag also stands.

There is no reasonable analogy here as it relates to the confederate flag and what it stands for today, and what it stood for when it was created, which is and always has been the rights of a white majority to own and oppress a black minority. Of rebellion against the idea that the black slaves should be free and that slavery should end in the United States. The fact it has secondary meanings that have developed over time that are tied to southern pride in the face of defeat in the civil war does not change that fact. All of what people see as 'positive' meanings found in that flag ultimately owe their origin to the single evil desire to continue to own slaves, to continue to oppress people based on their race.

[Bill the Cat]

... that as also long since lost any meaningful association with that sort of thinking. It now stands in the French culture as a symbol of their own revolution against an oppressive and abusive monarchy, of the rights of the people to rule themselves, much as the US flag also stands.

Yet they still maintain the Louvre, Versailles, and the palaces. Heck, they even turned royal dungeons into tourist attractions. So, claiming that any "meaningful association" has been lost is utter ignorance. France has made that dark era an important learning experience for the entire world.

There is no reasonable analogy here as it relates to the confederate flag and what it stands for today, and what it stood for when it was created, which is an always has been the rights of a white majority to own and oppress a black minority.

And the rights of freed blacks to own other blacks as well. Let's not whitewash THAT fact...

The fact it has secondary meanings that have developed over time that are tied to southern pride in the face of defeat in the civil war does not change that fact.

Nor would it honestly need to do so. Everyone has the right to say what they choose, and express that how they choose.

[JimL]

Oh no. You got me all wrong. My family fought for the North.

But I have no problem allowing others the freedom of speech to display whatever flag they choose, and the freedom to call those people idiots.

Nobody said that people can't display the flag and their own ignorance, it's about whether the government, which represents all the people, should display them.

[Bill the Cat]

Nobody said that people can't display the flag and their own ignorance, it's about whether the government, which represents all the people, should display them.

Why not? If the people vote and the majority want to keep it, what's the problem?

[oxmixmudd]

Yet they still maintain the Louvre, Versailles, and the palaces. Heck, they even turned royal dungeons into tourist attractions. So, claiming that any "meaningful association" has been lost is utter ignorance. France has made that dark era an important learning experience for the entire world.

Bill - in all the contexts you mention the French flags stands for the peoples rightful freedom from the oppressive monarcy. There is no 'rightful monarchy' conception in the French flag. The only reason those things can be tourist attractions and educational tools is that the monarchy has been overthrown, and the people rightfully now rule themselves, and they can indulge their fascination as observers from the outside of what was, no longer subject to the potential that rather than touring the dungeon, they would find themselves bound in chains inside it.

And the rights of freed blacks to own other blacks as well. Let's not whitewash THAT fact...

Moving the goal posts BTC. The exception is not the rule. And corruption knows no race. But tell me, did the freed blacks own white slaves?

Nor would it honestly need to do so. Everyone has the right to say what they choose, and express that how they choose.

Not exactly BTC. But even if you have the right to fly the confederate flag, it still means what it means to others, and you knowing that is what it means when you fly it is saying that is where you stand to the majority of those viewing it.

Most decent people don't want to spread that message as part of who they are. But people are free to do that if they so choose.

OTOH, the government, as JimL pointed out, is NOT free to send that message from its institutions, or on behalf of its offices or representatives.

[Bill the Cat]

Bill - in all the contexts you mention the French flags stands for the peoples rightful freedom from the oppressive monarchy. There is no 'rightful monarchy' conception in the French flag. The only reason those things can be tourist attractions and educations tools is that the monarchy has been overthrown, and the people now rule themselves, and they can indulge their fascination as observers from the outside of what was, no longer subject to the potential that rather than touring the dungeon, they would find themselves bound in chains to it.

That makes absolutely no sense or difference. The French flag stands for rebellion. As does their National Anthem. They stand as a reminder of a VERY bloody uprising where thousands were murdered at the hands of angry mobs. The royals had no trial, no due process, nothing. The oppressed simply became the oppressors. Not to mention the treatment of Protestants after Bastille Day (See The White Terror)

Moving the goal posts BTC. The exception is not the rule.

Exception?? Free blacks owned one-third of the plantation property and one-quarter of the slaves in Haiti. And nearly all of the African slaves sold during the pre-civil war era were in the Caribbean. So, blacks owning blacks was not an exception.

And corruption knows no race. But tell me, did the freed blacks own white slaves?

Actually, I ran across some evidence of that years ago that it was happening on the sugar cane plantations of New Orleans, but it was rare in the US. It was NOT rare in Africa.

Not exactly BTC. But even if you have the right to fly the confederate flag, it still means what it means to others, and you knowing that is what it means when you fly it is saying that is where you stand to the majority of those viewing it.

So what? If we went out of our way to avoid offending everyone who would find offense with the things we do, we'd never do anything..

Most decent people don't want to spread that message as part of who they are. But people are free to do that if they so chose.

Most people prioritize their offensive behavior into what they are willing to offend others on and what they aren't. And you have no say on where they choose to draw that line.

OTOH, the government, as JimL pointed out, is NOT free to send that message from its institutions, or on behalf of its offices or representatives.

Actually, the government is free to do pretty much whatever their people vote for as long as it is Constitutional. And choosing a flag is not unconstitutional.

[oxmixmudd]

That makes absolutely no sense or difference. The French flag stands for rebellion. As does their National Anthem. They stand as a reminder of a VERY bloody uprising where thousands were murdered at the hands of angry mobs. The royals had no trial, no due process, nothing. The oppressed simply became the oppressors. Not to mention the treatment of Protestants after Bastille Day (See The White Terror)

BTC, I've never been a fan of the french revolution as it played out. At the same time, the French flag is not a symbol of a rebellion against a 'rightful monarchy'. It is a symbol of a rebellion against an oppressive and abusive monarchy.

Exception?? Free blacks owned one-third of the plantation property and one-quarter of the slaves in Haiti.

Last I checked Haiti is not the US, and neither is/was Haiti part of the south or an active participant in the civil war. We are not talking about slavery around the world BTC, we are talking about slavery in the south and how it relates to the confederate flag. Further, Haiti's revolt against slavery happened a full 50 years before our own and may well have influenced our own move away from slavery.

And nearly all of the African slaves sold during the pre-civil war era were in the Caribbean. So, blacks owning blacks was not an exception.

So? What does that have to do with the fight against slavery by the White population of the Black population in the United States at the time of the civil war.

https://kirkcenter.org/reviews/haiti...can-civil-war/

Source: above

The source of those ripples, and what stopped the decline of slaveholding as an institution, was the political explosion off our southern coast: the Haitian Revolution of 1791–1804.

It is ironic that instead of echoing freedom to the lands around it, Haiti’s slave revolt resounded in the ears of slaveowners abroad as a signal to clamp down ever harder on their human property. It is in this period that Southern states began to pass laws about slavery designed to draw a bright line between black and white that could never be crossed. Free blacks were barred from moving into Southern states, and those living there were encouraged (sometimes required) to leave. Manumission was made more difficult and teaching slaves to read and write was outlawed.

© Copyright Original Source

Actually, I ran across some evidence of that years ago that it was happening on the sugar cane plantations of New Orleans, but it was rare in the US. It was NOT rare in Africa.

So? Again, the exception does not prove the rule, and we are talking about the American Civil War, not the worldwide history of slavery for the last 5000 years.

So what? If we went out of our way to avoid offending everyone who would find offense with the things we do, we'd never do anything..

That's pretty much the most lame defense of this topic I think I've every heard.

Most people prioritize their offensive behavior into what they are willing to offend others on and what they aren't. And you have no say on where they choose to draw that line.

True. Most of us try to avoid the big things and don't worry about the little things.

Doing things that imply we support white supremacist's racist ideals is - for most people - one of the big things we try to avoid.

Actually, the government is free to do pretty much whatever their people vote for as long as it is Constitutional. And choosing a flag is not unconstitutional.

The issue is not 'choosing a flag', it is choosing to ally ones government with racism, discrimination, and white supremacy through the choice of a flag. And discrimination on the basis of race is most certainly unconstitutional.