Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Confederate flags again
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"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostI separated out the last sentence, because that is where I think the rub is. The ones who argue that slavery was a secondary issue in antebellum south are pretty much neoconfederates.
Why do you argue that the flag is associated with racism and repression in the list civil war period? Did many see the values of white supremacy inconsistent with the flag, the heritage?
Why ask when you really want to accuse?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostHistorically speaking you might be right but I spent 7˝ years in Maryland just outside of D.C. Most everyone there considered themselves yankees and definitely not part of the South.
The Confederate statue pointing south remains in Rockville Md.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostI separated out the last sentence, because that is where I think the rub is. The ones who argue that slavery was a secondary issue in antebellum south are pretty much neoconfederates.
Why do you argue that the flag is associated with racism and repression in the list civil war period? Did many see the values of white supremacy inconsistent with the flag, the heritage?My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostDue to Northern migration for government the population has changed around Washington, and greatly impacted Virginia and now Virginia has become a borderline Democratic state.. I grew up in the late 1940's through 60's in the Rockville/ Gaithersburg rural area on a farm, and yes than Maryland was still a Southern state. There was a line following Route 1 from Washington to Baltimore where South of that line the KKK was still active then, and remains hardline Conservative and white. The Eastern shore of Maryland remains solid extreme Conservative Republican turf.
The Confederate statue pointing south remains in Rockville Md."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI dont really understand your question.
I see several distinct periods in the way the flag was viewed or used. The 1860s, the war and its immediate aftermath, the 1870s (reconstruction and redemption), 1890s - WWI (rollback of the reconstruction amendments), post WWII to 60s, post civil rights era. Each period has subtle shift in how the flag was used.
At each period many, the masses, saw white supremacy as entirely consistent with the values of that flag, as well as consistent with southern heritage. Pushback did not start with the excesses of the fifties and sixties with the concurrent acceptance of civil rights, universal suffrage, and achieving the franchise.
Overlay those periods with the slow evolution of strategies and tactics of civil rights reformers, and a fuller picture emerges. For example, Plessy was an early attempt at achieving full rights, and was rejected; it was concurrent with the establishment of Jim Crow and the nadir of race relations.
The historical views by contemporaries has been pretty much absent from this discussion.Last edited by simplicio; 12-16-2019, 12:29 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostDue to Northern migration for government the population has changed around Washington, and greatly impacted Virginia and now Virginia has become a borderline Democratic state.. I grew up in the late 1940's through 60's in the Rockville/ Gaithersburg rural area on a farm, and yes than Maryland was still a Southern state. There was a line following Route 1 from Washington to Baltimore where South of that line the KKK was still active then, and remains hardline Conservative and white. The Eastern shore of Maryland remains solid extreme Conservative Republican turf.
The Confederate statue pointing south remains in Rockville Md.
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostThe question refers to how those who proudly carried that flag thought about the values it represented.
I see several distinct periods in the way the flag was viewed or used. The 1860s, the war and its immediate aftermath, the 1870s (reconstruction and redemption), 1890s - WWI (rollback of the reconstruction amendments), post WWII to 60s, post civil rights era. Each period has subtle shift in how the flag was used.
At each period many, the masses, saw white supremacy as entirely consistent with the values of that flag, as well as consistent with southern heritage. Pushback did not start with the excesses of the fifties and sixties with the concurrent acceptance of civil rights, universal suffrage, and achieving the franchise.
Overlay those periods with the slow evolution of strategies and tactics of civil rights reformers, and a fuller picture emerges. For example, Plessy was an early attempt at achieving full rights, and was rejected; it was concurrent with the establishment of Jim Crow and the nadir of race relations.
The historical views by contemporaries has been pretty much absent from this discussion.
Not my area of study.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostInteresting, but I'm not the fellow to be asking for detailed opinions on the historical view of that flag in various cultures across those same periods.
Not my area of study.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI was in Bowie in the 1960s early 70s. The kids born there never for a moment considered themselves to be Southerners who they typically viewed as "rednecks."
Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-16-2019, 06:20 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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I live in New England and I can't tell you how many Confederate flags I see on pick up trucks, in one form or another. Mostly young blue collar guys. It seems to have more of a rebellious connotation rather than a race thing.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBecause we are entertained by your answers, JimL.
But did Jim do that?
I started the thread about Obama being unwilling to accurately label Islamic terrorism. Here we have posters tripping over themselves, but on the topic of racism.
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostYes, I agree, someone such as JimL is entertaining. imagine having no understanding (or acting as if he does not understand) why black Americans find that symbol offensive. Almost like finding Jews who are not offended by a swastika on a flag.
But did Jim do that?
I started the thread about Obama being unwilling to accurately label Islamic terrorism. Here we have posters tripping over themselves, but on the topic of racism.
The flag has only recently been associated with racism, because liberals have decided it is so [much like they are doing with the Betsy Ross flag now]. But I remember back in the 1970s and 80s it wasn't. Case in point: the TV show "The Dukes of Hazzard" where they had a car named the General Lee and it had a confederate flag on it and nobody accused the TV show of promoting racism. And this show was put out by liberal Hollywood!
The confederate flag was simply a symbol of Dixie (the south)
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostRogue showed you that not all blacks are offended by that flag. You choose to just ignore any evidence that does not support your preconceptions, much like JimL does.
The flag has only recently been associated with racism, because liberals have decided it is so [much like they are doing with the Betsy Ross flag now]. But I remember back in the 1970s and 80s it wasn't. Case in point: the TV show "The Dukes of Hazzard" where they had a car named the General Lee and it had a confederate flag on it and nobody accused the TV show of promoting racism. And this show was put out by liberal Hollywood!
The confederate flag was simply a symbol of Dixie (the south)
At each era in the flags existence, how many actually thought that the true meaning and heritage was being hijacked when appropriated by racists?
The examples posted by rogue are the outliers, extreme exceptions, such as H K Edgerton. Not sure if anyone commented on the statement of Edgerton.
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