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Confederate flags again

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    No, Christians didn't think racism was "good" a few years ago. Or consistent with Christian values. That is a moronic thing to say.
    The leaders of the South I cited described the racism of white supremacy. as good and justified.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      You are imposing your values today on a time where they were different. You just admitted it in your last post.

      If you tried to have the show Dukes of Hazzard produced today, it would be stopped immediately and called racist trash, even if it was a "light hearted farce" - Do you think that people accept what they think is racism if it is just a comedy? No. Just because such things as the Dukes of Hazzard and Song of the South were enjoyed without people thinking they were racist doesn't MAKE everyone back then racist.

      What has happened is that we have become way more sensitized to racism because of liberal agendas such as Intersectionality, which calls out differences in people and ranks their "victimhood" based on such things as sex and race. Now every little thing is examined to see if it is "racist" or not and it usually is determined to be so. Because it helps the liberals denounce everyone who doesn't agree with them.

      If anything, liberals have become more racist/sexist in recent years, but against whites and males.
      Your playing dodgeball. The citations I referenced are complete and specific and represent the words of the leaders of the Confederacy. I do not even see any direct citations in your reference from the leaders of the Confederacy that describe why the justified rebellion against the union. All I see is Monday morning editorial quarterbacking for Sunday's lost football games by those that were not even players in the games.

      Still waiting for direct citations form the leaders of the Confederacy that disagree with my citations.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        We are talking about the confederate flag being a racist symbol. Not morality.

        Racism is bad. But what we call racism today is not necessarily what they called racism 40 years ago, or even actually racist today. Today the term is used as an attack on anyone the left doesn't like. Like "deplorable" or "nazi"


        You are begging the question by assuming your values are the only valid one and those of 40 years ago are not. And we aren't even talking about actual racism or racist actions, but what symbols people thought of as racist and whether they really are. Heck a year from now some symbol you use today could be declared racist. Suppose you wear Nike shoes and 10 years from now they claim that the Nike swoop logo is racist because some white nationalists use the symbol. Does that make it actually racist? Does that make YOU racist now?




        You mean like this guy?



        http://www.theamericanmirror.com/bla...y-in-churches/

        https://wpde.com/news/videos/socaste...rican-activist
        A discussion about racism is a discussion about morality, racism is (almost) universally condemned as immoral, and in Christian circles racism is considered a sin.

        Some ideas are racist, regardless of the time. Just because ideas are accepted during one period does not change the morality of the idea. Yes Lincoln and Jefferson were racist, ideas they held are shocking to our sensibilities .

        Many find it repugnant that the image of Che Guevara is treasured on college campuses. And it is appropriately seen as tacit acceptance of ideas. Yes, people do naively hoist the image of Che, without accepting all the baggage which goes along with what he accomplished. And some even hoist the Nazi emblem without intending all the horrors of that regime. Both Che and Adolf are monsters not worthy of resurrecting their legacies, even if the immoral aspects are consciously dropped. Notice that the champions of Hitler and Guevara seldom address or even acknowledge the evil within their ideas.

        Which elements of Jefferson and Gen Lee should we discard, which should honor? I do not think it does either men's legacy justice to whitewash and ignore their errors.

        Some ideas of the past are rightfully rejected today, because they were wrong. One iconic image of the civil rights era was some good old boys with a sign on their care reading "The negroe has no greater friend than the soutjern white man. But no integration". Were those men racist?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I was arguing with JimL who said slavery was the ONLY reason. I showed him he was wrong.
          You showed me I was wrong? That's a laugh. The confederate flag was designed for one purpose, and that purpose was the souths insurrection against the U.S. over the issue of slavery. There may be other reasons to be proud of southern heritage, but that is not what the confederate flag was designed for or stood for. I'm sure that most people in their ignorance who display the flag don't display it for that reason, but that's because of their ignorance of it's original symbolic intent.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            You showed me I was wrong? That's a laugh. The confederate flag was designed for one purpose, and that purpose was the souths insurrection against the U.S. over the issue of slavery. There may be other reasons to be proud of southern heritage, but that is not what the confederate flag was designed for or stood for. I'm sure that most people in their ignorance who display the flag don't display it for that reason, but that's because of their ignorance of it's original symbolic intent.
            Though many if not most who display the flag are, indeed, not ignorant of the original intent. The history of the Civil War is generally well known. You pretty much have to live in Plato's cave to be ignorant of the original intent.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Some say the flag represent service, sacrifice, and heritage, and its meaning was highjacked by men such as Dylan Roof. Others claim it is a symbol inextricably linked to regnant ideas of slavery and racism.

              Few symbols are polarizing in the same way. The Nazi emblem is pretty much universally condemned, the only persons who are trying to retrieve respectability for the swastika are those who admire the politics of the Nazi movement.

              The closest parallel is Che Guevara. Che is either the Christlike figure (no greater love....) of gallantry, chivalry, and adventure and the Guerillo Heroico, or the antidemocratic thug infatuated with violence and the butcher of La Cabana.

              Not sure the two extremes of Che can be reconciled, nor the extremes on the flag reconciled. But can any of the champions honestly examine it past, and why the opposite view has adherents?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                Some say the flag represent service, sacrifice, and heritage, and its meaning was highjacked by men such as Dylan Roof. Others claim it is a symbol inextricably linked to regnant ideas of slavery and racism.

                Few symbols are polarizing in the same way. The Nazi emblem is pretty much universally condemned, the only persons who are trying to retrieve respectability for the swastika are those who admire the politics of the Nazi movement.

                The closest parallel is Che Guevara. Che is either the Christlike figure (no greater love....) of gallantry, chivalry, and adventure and the Guerillo Heroico, or the antidemocratic thug infatuated with violence and the butcher of La Cabana.

                Not sure the two extremes of Che can be reconciled, nor the extremes on the flag reconciled. But can any of the champions honestly examine it past, and why the opposite view has adherents?
                It should be noted that there are more than a few Native Americans who are less than thrilled that they can not use a symbol that they consider sacred.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  It should be noted that there are more than a few Native Americans who are less than thrilled that they can not use a symbol that they consider sacred.
                  I don't see a problem with those uses of the swastika, few would claim that it has offensive meaning when used by those groups.

                  Do you think the image of Che can be used as a virtuous image?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    It should be noted that there are more than a few Native Americans who are less than thrilled that they can not use a symbol that they consider sacred.
                    It should be noted that the problem is the Nazi Flag and banners and other symbols of Nazi Germany , and not the use of the many diverse uses if the swastika by Native American, Buddhists and other cultures.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      It should be noted that the problem is the Nazi Flag and banners and other symbols of Nazi Germany , and not the use of the many diverse uses if the swastika by Native American, Buddhists and other cultures.
                      Several Native American tribes have signed an oath banning the use of the swastika because of its association with Nazi Germany and this summer at a Salt Lake City flea market a Navajo blanket that prominently featured one was deemed to be Nazi paraphernalia and the vendor forced to remove it.

                      And just this month

                      Source: University of Montana council urges removal of swastika-like symbol


                      MISSOULA, Mont. — A council at the University of Montana has recommended the removal of a swastika-like tile arrangement on the walls of a university hall.

                      The tiles show a mirror-image swastika called an aristika designed within Corbin Hall in the 1920s when swastikas were not yet adopted as a symbol by the Nazis, university officials said. The symbols were originally meant to celebrate Native American and east Asian culture.

                      After months of calls for the tiles to be taken down amid the image's negative connotation, the university's Diversity Advisory Council voted Tuesday to recommended the tiles be removed, archived and replaced. The council will send the proposal to President Seth Bodnar.

                      The student and faculty senates passed resolutions this fall for the tiles to be removed before the diversity council.

                      Some professors have expressed concerns about letting the Nazi use of a symbol overshadow its more positive connotation in other cultures and recommended installing a plaque explaining the symbol's meaning.



                      Source

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      KECI, the local NBC affiliate, noted that the "council at the University of Montana" is the "diversity advisory council" who are concerned that some students could be offended by the backward swastikas.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Several Native American tribes have signed an oath banning the use of the swastika because of its association with Nazi Germany and this summer at a Salt Lake City flea market a Navajo blanket that prominently featured one was deemed to be Nazi paraphernalia and the vendor forced to remove it.

                        And just this month

                        Source: University of Montana council urges removal of swastika-like symbol


                        MISSOULA, Mont. — A council at the University of Montana has recommended the removal of a swastika-like tile arrangement on the walls of a university hall.

                        The tiles show a mirror-image swastika called an aristika designed within Corbin Hall in the 1920s when swastikas were not yet adopted as a symbol by the Nazis, university officials said. The symbols were originally meant to celebrate Native American and east Asian culture.

                        After months of calls for the tiles to be taken down amid the image's negative connotation, the university's Diversity Advisory Council voted Tuesday to recommended the tiles be removed, archived and replaced. The council will send the proposal to President Seth Bodnar.

                        The student and faculty senates passed resolutions this fall for the tiles to be removed before the diversity council.

                        Some professors have expressed concerns about letting the Nazi use of a symbol overshadow its more positive connotation in other cultures and recommended installing a plaque explaining the symbol's meaning.



                        Source

                        © Copyright Original Source



                        KECI, the local NBC affiliate, noted that the "council at the University of Montana" is the "diversity advisory council" who are concerned that some students could be offended by the backward swastikas.
                        To me this is unfortunate, nonetheless for the topic of this thread the issue remains:

                        It should be noted that the problem is the Nazi Flag and banners and other symbols of Nazi Germany , and not the use of the many diverse uses if the swastika by Native American, Buddhists and other cultures.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Several Native American tribes have signed an oath banning the use of the swastika because of its association with Nazi Germany and this summer at a Salt Lake City flea market a Navajo blanket that prominently featured one was deemed to be Nazi paraphernalia and the vendor forced to remove it.

                          And just this month

                          Source: University of Montana council urges removal of swastika-like symbol


                          MISSOULA, Mont. — A council at the University of Montana has recommended the removal of a swastika-like tile arrangement on the walls of a university hall.

                          The tiles show a mirror-image swastika called an aristika designed within Corbin Hall in the 1920s when swastikas were not yet adopted as a symbol by the Nazis, university officials said. The symbols were originally meant to celebrate Native American and east Asian culture.

                          After months of calls for the tiles to be taken down amid the image's negative connotation, the university's Diversity Advisory Council voted Tuesday to recommended the tiles be removed, archived and replaced. The council will send the proposal to President Seth Bodnar.

                          The student and faculty senates passed resolutions this fall for the tiles to be removed before the diversity council.

                          Some professors have expressed concerns about letting the Nazi use of a symbol overshadow its more positive connotation in other cultures and recommended installing a plaque explaining the symbol's meaning.



                          Source

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          KECI, the local NBC affiliate, noted that the "council at the University of Montana" is the "diversity advisory council" who are concerned that some students could be offended by the backward swastikas.
                          The swastikas had a meaning separate from and not relates to racism with the native American usage.

                          Racism is intertwined with the symbolism of the Confederate symbol, at its inception, and at each point in history. Nikki Haley made the comment that it meant heritage, not hate until Dylan Roof hijacked it.

                          In 62 when Gantt integrated Clemson, those who objected to integration thought it prudent to carry that flag before him. http://www.scpronet.com/modjeskascho...ve-Dignity.pdf

                          In 1915, Birth of a Nation featured it.

                          In 1920, racism was not intertwined with the swastika.

                          I wonder how many Christians would accept the Che image on a shirt at church?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                            The swastikas had a meaning separate from and not relates to racism with the native American usage.

                            Racism is intertwined with the symbolism of the Confederate symbol, at its inception, and at each point in history.
                            That's simply not true. The most recognized flag was a battle flag from a local militia that was one of several flags adopted by different Confederate states. It had nothing to do with racism. Racism has been attached to it to be sure, but it was not "intertwined" at its inception.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              That's simply not true. The most recognized flag was a battle flag from a local militia that was one of several flags adopted by different Confederate states. It had nothing to do with racism. Racism has been attached to it to be sure, but it was not "intertwined" at its inception.
                              It is not a matter of it being the most recognized flag, which is questionable.There were a number of different flags used by the Confederacy. The headquarters flag of the Army of Northern Virginia was a different flag, but . . .

                              It was the Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag, designed by William Porcher Miles.It was flown at the front of the Army of Northern Virginia in Battle throughout the war beginning in 1861.
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-03-2020, 10:24 PM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                That's simply not true. The most recognized flag was a battle flag from a local militia that was one of several flags adopted by different Confederate states. It had nothing to do with racism. Racism has been attached to it to be sure, but it was not "intertwined" at its inception.
                                But how many of its men, and its leaders, thought that slavery was part and parcel of what the Confederacy stood for?

                                The flag has 13 stars, one for each state in the confederacy,

                                Comment

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