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Confederate flags again

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  • #31
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Wrong. The civil war was over slavery and the Flag was created in support of that war. People may have been proud of their slave states and may have wanted to preserve it, but that doesbn't alter the fact that the flag was meant to sybolize the fight for its continuence.
    The civil war was about State rights ...

    To own slaves.

    It's not either/or. It's both. But the historical reality is only one of those two matters at this point. And that is why the Confederate flag, outside a very limited circle, is symbolic of racism against African americans.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      No, I was talking about how it is regarded in the South. The Battle Flag is more often regarded as a symbol of heritage. Sure, there are other opinions but those don't reflect the majority.

      And for pity's sake, get the name right at least. It's called the Battle Flag since it bears the heraldry of the actual Battle Flag, but it is not the Confederate Flag and never has been.

      As to the rest it's just self sanctimony from those who prefer to hate their imaginary version of the South.
      The symbol of your heritage is the American flag.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        Ours, not yours.
        How are you defining 'Ours?'
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by simplicio View Post
          Okay. Some argue that the heritage represented by the flag is repression and racism, represented by forcing a black man in 1877 (the waning of reconstruction) before they lynched him, the symbolism of the 1915 movie Birth of a Nation, or the images of the men marching at Charlottesville.

          Others argue that the flag has nothing to do with racism, the southern ideals developed without any racist influence.

          Which ideas do you think are represented by the flag, or are you referring to something which draws something from both positions?
          It represents the past, good and bad. And Wallace's political acumen - at least the stupid one you're talking about does.

          The truth is that I see a level of complexity that you can't imagine. You see only two options. Not surprising, it's common to reduce the South to the simplest terms and easiest caricature. Forget Wall Street's origins, ignore Jefferson's wolf, no, the South is somehow different. It can't be anything other than how bad those Southern people were, and are.

          If you think that the South is defined by racism then you don't understand it at all. Little wonder that you don't get what heritage we see in the stupid Battle Flag - let alone the real one.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

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          • #35
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            How are you defining 'Ours?'
            Not yours, Yankee.

            Dude, if you wanna hate your current home that's on you.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

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            • #36
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              The symbol of your heritage is the American flag.
              Alabama has six flags that have flown over it. My country is America. My heritage is far more complex than mere nationality which is true of all Americans. One of the things that makes it great. So what if I have more flags than you do? That just gives me more to bring to the table.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                It represents the past, good and bad. And Wallace's political acumen - at least the stupid one you're talking about does.

                The truth is that I see a level of complexity that you can't imagine. You see only two options. Not surprising, it's common to reduce the South to the simplest terms and easiest caricature. Forget Wall Street's origins, ignore Jefferson's wolf, no, the South is somehow different. It can't be anything other than how bad those Southern people were, and are.

                If you think that the South is defined by racism then you don't understand it at all. Little wonder that you don't get what heritage we see in the stupid Battle Flag - let alone the real one.
                The confederate flag was created in 1861, not 1776, the same time and by the same man that created the confederate army uniform at the start of the insurrection against the U.S. and that insurrection was all about slavery. That's the heritage that the confederate flag is symbolic of and nothing else.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  The confederate flag was created in 1861, not 1776, the same time and by the same man that created the confederate army uniform at the start of the insurrection against the U.S. and that insurrection was all about slavery. That's the heritage that the confederate flag is symbolic of and nothing else.
                  Haters gotta hate. But I will point out that the US flag flew over a nation that was very much a slave state. Abolition doesn't occur in the North for several decades and then only because industrialization plus large populations makes wage labor much cheaper than slave.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    Haters gotta hate. But I will point out that the US flag flew over a nation that was very much a slave state. Abolition doesn't occur in the North for several decades and then only because industrialization plus large populations makes wage labor much cheaper than slave.
                    And the confederate flag was created in response to that movement away from slave labor and the attempt to eliminate slavery from the US.

                    And that is it's legacy, despite the fact that over time some in the south began to develop other affinities for it. The fact remains, the vast majority across the country and in the south itself still see it as a symbol of the fight FOR the right to own slaves. And as such it is a symbol of that same slavery, and of those that still hold onto the attitudes towards the former slaves that have keep them poor and repressed for the 150 years following the end of the conflict.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      Not yours, Yankee.

                      Dude, if you wanna hate your current home that's on you.
                      I am not a Yankee! I am from Maryland that considers it an occupied state by Northern troops with a Confederate statue pointing South, and segregation ruled, and I have always lived in the South whenever I lived in the USA. I do not equate the South with the Confederate flag nor slavery and racism. Unfortunately it is a fact of history that the Confederate flag is a symbol of secession, slavery and racism, and the only ones who cling to the flag support its heritage in one way or another,
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                        Was the emoji necessary? I first took your post as providing counterexample which is a basic rhetorical tool.

                        Just how complex are these things? The romantic mythos of the black Confederate is more than a little problematic. It is based on a false view of history and rejects important realities. The quote is from H. K. Edgerton which I chose was to illustrate the way he has marginalized himself, why he is so rare.

                        Yes, symbolism of flags do carry multiple meanings. But would we be willing to parse out and separate all the meanings which are carried by the flag of the Third Reich? Can we accept the positive while seemingly downplaying the negative? Or worse, denying that the flag really carries a repugnant meaning?

                        Should we parse out and separate meanings? Are the meaning really distinct that we can separate them and treat them as discrete ideas?
                        I wasn't talking about black Confederates although it appears that some of the pictures appear to be descendants of them. The point was that if it is inherently racist and the racism cannot be separated from the flag then that news had not reached these folks.


                        And yes the emoji is always necessary.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          I am not a Yankee! I am from Maryland that considers it an occupied state by Northern troops with a Confederate statue pointing South, and segregation ruled, and I have always lived in the South whenever I lived in the USA. I do not equate the South with the Confederate flag nor slavery and racism. Unfortunately it is a fact of history that the Confederate flag is a symbol of secession, slavery and racism, and the only ones who cling to the flag support its heritage in one way or another,
                          Historically speaking you might be right but I spent 7˝ years in Maryland just outside of D.C. Most everyone there considered themselves yankees and definitely not part of the South.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            And the confederate flag was created in response to that movement away from slave labor and the attempt to eliminate slavery from the US.

                            And that is it's legacy, despite the fact that over time some in the south began to develop other affinities for it. The fact remains, the vast majority across the country and in the south itself still see it as a symbol of the fight FOR the right to own slaves.


                            And as such it is a symbol of that same slavery, and of those that still hold onto the attitudes towards the former slaves that have keep them poor and repressed for the 150 years following the end of the conflict.
                            I separated out the last sentence, because that is where I think the rub is. The ones who argue that slavery was a secondary issue in antebellum south are pretty much neoconfederates.

                            Why do you argue that the flag is associated with racism and repression in the list civil war period? Did many see the values of white supremacy inconsistent with the flag, the heritage?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                              Nikki Haley is arguing that it was hijacked by the likes such as Dylan Roof. Which implies that it has not had its past association with white supremacy.
                              In the past? It was the battle flag of the confederates wasn't it? They led a war that was mostly about their right to maintain slavery. The symbol later changed meaning, and now it represents something different to the South. Heritage as Teal says it. There's nothing wrong with being proud of where you come from.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                In the past? It was the battle flag of the confederates wasn't it? They led a war that was mostly about their right to maintain slavery. The symbol later changed meaning, and now it represents something different to the South. Heritage as Teal says it. There's nothing wrong with being proud of where you come from.
                                I am proud of where I came from and live, the South, and no the Confederate flag does not represent the heritage of the South. The flag is inherently racist in its advocate of secession in support of slavery. Most of the states of the South have dropped the flag from their state flag and will not fly the flag on state property. Actually the KKK and the white racists best that the flag originally represented, and everyone I know personally in the Sons of the Confederate Veterans are openly racist They also advocate secession of the Southern States, and by the way hate Abraham Lincoln.

                                I find better heroes and heritage of the South like those who bravely fought in the Revolution against Great Britain, and Inventors and educators like George Washington Carver.
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-15-2019, 05:29 PM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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