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Confederate flags again

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    That's not my experience.
    Teal, The majority of the country sees it as a symbol of white Nationalism racism and the KKK. I pointed out that some people don't see the CF in this light, and I understand that. There just aren't that many. However, you DO live in Alabamistan.... ;)
    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
    George Bernard Shaw

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      That's not my experience.
      Where do you live?
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
        Teal, The majority of the country sees it as a symbol of white Nationalism racism and the KKK. I pointed out that some people don't see the CF in this light, and I understand that. There just aren't that many. However, you DO live in Alabamistan.... ;)
        No, I was talking about how it is regarded in the South. The Battle Flag is more often regarded as a symbol of heritage. Sure, there are other opinions but those don't reflect the majority.

        And for pity's sake, get the name right at least. It's called the Battle Flag since it bears the heraldry of the actual Battle Flag, but it is not the Confederate Flag and never has been.

        As to the rest it's just self sanctimony from those who prefer to hate their imaginary version of the South.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          Symbols can change their meaning. The question is what does the flag mean to those in South now?
          Nikki Haley is arguing that it was hijacked by the likes such as Dylan Roof. Which implies that it has not had its past association with white supremacy.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            Rogue googles “blacks with confederate flags”
            Quite a few search to show that blacks also supported the CSA.

            Examples are Louis N Nelson Co M, 7th Tenn Calvary, CSA; or the 1st Louisiana Guards. The examples don't hold up to scrutiny.

            It like the "blacks were happy under slavery" arguments

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              No, I was talking about how it is regarded in the South. The Battle Flag is more often regarded as a symbol of heritage. Sure, there are other opinions but those don't reflect the majority.

              And for pity's sake, get the name right at least. It's called the Battle Flag since it bears the heraldry of the actual Battle Flag, but it is not the Confederate Flag and never has been.

              As to the rest it's just self sanctimony from those who prefer to hate their imaginary version of the South.
              The precision in language over the flag is a recent phenomenon.

              Yes it is a symbol of heritage. But just what is that heritage?
              Last edited by simplicio; 12-14-2019, 11:08 PM. Reason: Corrected spelling

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              • #22
                Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                The person in language over the flag is a recent phenomenon.

                Yes it is a symbol of heritage. But just what is that heritage?
                Ours, not yours.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  Ours, not yours.
                  I corrected the spelling in the post. Not sure just what you are saying.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Fixed the title from "omfederate" before popped a blood vessel.


                    As for the flag always having been a symbol of racism...



                    Maybe you should ask these folks:

                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]41379[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]41380[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]41381[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]41385[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]41383[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]41384[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]41382[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]41386[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]41387[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]41388[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]41389[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]41390[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]41391[/ATTACH]







                    The first image is of a former NAACP Chapter leader and the last one is of a woman going to vote.
                    Amen! "Black folks earned a place of honor and dignity with this flag". Makes sense, especially since they have fared so well.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                      Quite a few search to show that blacks also supported the CSA.

                      Examples are Louis N Nelson Co M, 7th Tenn Calvary, CSA; or the 1st Louisiana Guards. The examples don't hold up to scrutiny.

                      It like the "blacks were happy under slavery" arguments


                      It illustrates that things are more complex than we want them to be.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                        Nikki Haley is arguing that it was hijacked by the likes such as Dylan Roof. Which implies that it has not had its past association with white supremacy.
                        Only if she was arguing that it wasn't hijacked until Dylan Roof.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Only if she was arguing that it wasn't hijacked until Dylan Roof.
                          I think that is the real crux of the controversy concerning the flag.

                          Just what did Haley mean by "hijacked" and how can we really tell what her intended meaning was?

                          Many do try to convince the world that the white supremacy was not inherent at the inception of the Confederacy, that it was not a prominent issue for the Confederacy, racism has not been an intended meaning for the flag, and that racists coopted the meaning of the flag (and the Confederate monuments).

                          Others try to convince the world that racism was an integral part of the Confederacy, racism was always coincident with the flag and monuments, and that racists have merely used a meaning which has always been carried by supporters of the flag.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post


                            It illustrates that things are more complex than we want them to be.
                            Was the emoji necessary? I first took your post as providing counterexample which is a basic rhetorical tool.

                            Just how complex are these things? The romantic mythos of the black Confederate is more than a little problematic. It is based on a false view of history and rejects important realities. The quote is from H. K. Edgerton which I chose was to illustrate the way he has marginalized himself, why he is so rare.

                            Yes, symbolism of flags do carry multiple meanings. But would we be willing to parse out and separate all the meanings which are carried by the flag of the Third Reich? Can we accept the positive while seemingly downplaying the negative? Or worse, denying that the flag really carries a repugnant meaning?

                            Should we parse out and separate meanings? Are the meaning really distinct that we can separate them and treat them as discrete ideas?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                              I corrected the spelling in the post. Not sure just what you are saying.
                              I never saw a spelling error - I referred to our heritage, not (evidently) yours.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                I never saw a spelling error - I referred to our heritage, not (evidently) yours.
                                Okay. Some argue that the heritage represented by the flag is repression and racism, represented by forcing a black man in 1877 (the waning of reconstruction) before they lynched him, the symbolism of the 1915 movie Birth of a Nation, or the images of the men marching at Charlottesville.

                                Others argue that the flag has nothing to do with racism, the southern ideals developed without any racist influence.

                                Which ideas do you think are represented by the flag, or are you referring to something which draws something from both positions?

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