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Thread: Globalism

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    tWebber Ronson's Avatar
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    Globalism

    Globalism means different things to different people. The election in Britain may be seen - in part - as a rejection of globalism (Brexit).

    In the US, IMO, globalism means placing the welfare of the world ahead of the welfare of the country. The idea sounds lofty and laudable on the face of it (which is about as deep as progressives think things through) but is not sustainable. Because from the US vantage point, globalism means sending US tax dollars overseas to benefit others, and not US citizens. When it becomes more and more difficult to retain middle class status in this country, it is simply outrageous to see millions and billions of US tax dollars being sent elsewhere.

    The idea that what benefits the world benefits the US is not true, except in some Pollyanna reality where gratitude reigns. It doesn't. When the US supports one faction in a foreign country it creates an enemy of its opposition. And then it just cascades from there (especially if there are several factions in play).

    Globalism has been tried by the US since the 1940s, and in even greater earnest since the Gulf War. It is a major reason the US is sinking into incredible debt, and the wars it produces are killing our children soldiers and those of other countries. I hope in 2020, everyone here will consider the globalist stance of the congressional candidates in their states and districts.

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    I do think the United States is too deeply involved in foreign affairs though at the same time I think an abrupt withdrawal from world affairs would be irresponsible given that our government's actions have had an effect on various areas of destabilization. It would be like creating a mess and suddenly leaving without trying to pick it up.

    I would like to push back on one part: From a Christian perspective, I do think that the overall welfare of the world is more important than the welfare of the US. We have brothers in Christ all around the world and I don't see any justification for claiming that the good of a persecuted brother in China (China is cracking down on religious freedom, recently banning the Bible) does not outweigh the good of a random non-Christian living in the US.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    tWebber Ronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I do think the United States is too deeply involved in foreign affairs though at the same time I think an abrupt withdrawal from world affairs would be irresponsible given that our government's actions have had an effect on various areas of destabilization. It would be like creating a mess and suddenly leaving without trying to pick it up.
    As far as destabilization, I suppose it depends on the details. We've been in Afghanistan going on 19 years and it isn't getting more stable, and it wasn't stable before we went in. Once Bin Laden was located and was iced we should have pulled out of there. We never should have gone into Iraq or Syria and our prolonged presence isn't justified now. This, however, doesn't address simple financial aspects.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I would like to push back on one part: From a Christian perspective, I do think that the overall welfare of the world is more important than the welfare of the US. We have brothers in Christ all around the world and I don't see any justification for claiming that the good of a persecuted brother in China (China is cracking down on religious freedom, recently banning the Bible) does not outweigh the good of a random non-Christian living in the US.
    The globalism I am speaking of includes the failed policy of 'democracy building', supporting rebels (often just lesser of evils in a quagmire), and paying extortion (like $2.5 billion per year to Israel and Egypt so long as they don't fight each other). I don't believe your example of Chinese persecution of Christians qualifies. There are things we can do in trading practices or sanctions to persuade unsavory governments to behave better.

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    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I would like to push back on one part: From a Christian perspective, I do think that the overall welfare of the world is more important than the welfare of the US. We have brothers in Christ all around the world and I don't see any justification for claiming that the good of a persecuted brother in China (China is cracking down on religious freedom, recently banning the Bible) does not outweigh the good of a random non-Christian living in the US.
    KingsGambit, crusader?
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

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    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I would like to push back on one part: From a Christian perspective, I do think that the overall welfare of the world is more important than the welfare of the US. We have brothers in Christ all around the world and I don't see any justification for claiming that the good of a persecuted brother in China (China is cracking down on religious freedom, recently banning the Bible) does not outweigh the good of a random non-Christian living in the US.
    The justification on a foreign policy level is that the US is a secular country with secular policy. Your hypothetical perspective requires entertaining the idea of a (right wing) Christian theocracy.
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

  6. Amen seanD amen'd this post.
  7. #6
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    The justification on a foreign policy level is that the US is a secular country with secular policy. Your hypothetical perspective requires entertaining the idea of a (right wing) Christian theocracy.
    It also entertains the idea US actually does it for humanitarian reasons as opposed to reasons that benefit smaller interest groups.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronson View Post
    it is simply outrageous to see millions and billions of US tax dollars being sent elsewhere.
    It is interesting to see US conservatives get increasingly wound up about foreign aid, yet US foreign aid is actually at pretty low levels compared to what it used to be:



    Compared to other OECD countries, the US doesn't even make the top-givers list:



    The US is about 23rd in foreign aid given per capita, behind Slovenia and Greece.

    And when in 2015 Obama redirected 2% of the money that the US gives in foreign aid, to climate related assistance funds, the conservatives worked themselves into a tizzy, imagining that the US treasury doors were being flung open and the rest of the world was looting it or something.

    It's worth noting that the US's massive foreign aid toward Germany and Japan in the wake of WWII was a huge positive for the US. It successfully turned enemies of the US into long-time allies who today remain extremely productive and friendly countries and economies.

    Today, foreign aid money mostly goes to 3rd world countries, and has succeeded in massively improving quality of life in those countries. This has positive effects for the developed world that range from less likelihood of pandemics breaking out from those nations to kill people in the West due to more healthy living conditions in those nations, less chance of wars breaking out that would require troops from the West fighting and dying due to greater stability in those nations, a lower total environmental burden on the earth due to increasing life expectancies and access to contraception in those nations meaning they don't need/want to have as many children meaning the total earth population is now trending toward stabilizing rather than exponentially increasing.

  9. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post

    Today, foreign aid money mostly goes to 3rd world countries, and has succeeded in massively improving quality of life in those countries. This has positive effects for the developed world that range from less likelihood of pandemics breaking out from those nations to kill people in the West due to more healthy living conditions in those nations, less chance of wars breaking out that would require troops from the West fighting and dying due to greater stability in those nations, a lower total environmental burden on the earth due to increasing life expectancies and access to contraception in those nations meaning they don't need/want to have as many children meaning the total earth population is now trending toward stabilizing rather than exponentially increasing.
    Um... source?

    And this is a neocon talking point they use to justify foreign intervention. Wouldn't it actually benefit a leftist socialist more to argue that that money should be focused on domestic social programs instead? I don't get that.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  11. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I would like to push back on one part: From a Christian perspective, I do think that the overall welfare of the world is more important than the welfare of the US. We have brothers in Christ all around the world and I don't see any justification for claiming that the good of a persecuted brother in China (China is cracking down on religious freedom, recently banning the Bible) does not outweigh the good of a random non-Christian living in the US.
    Out of curiosity, would you be in favor of putting the needs of others ahead of that of your own family?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronson View Post
    The globalism I am speaking of includes the failed policy of 'democracy building', supporting rebels (often just lesser of evils in a quagmire)
    Your 'globalism' seems to have a strange definition. It seems to vary between meaning being involved, at all, in the world, and meaning specific policies that the US has intermittently pursued.

    You mention 'democracy building' for example. That's been a bit of an on-again off-again idea that the US has occasionally tinkered with over the years. But far and away above that would be the number of times the US has done democracy un-building in the form of instigating coups against, and overthrows of, democratically elected governments. Those are different things, and its important not to lump them into the same category.

    Looking through the 20th century, some of the stand-out low-lights of that were the US overthrowing democratically elected governments in central america in the 1920s to further the profits of US banana companies (where the term "Banana Republic" meaning unstable country comes from), the US waging a massive war in Vietnam and the surrounding region for basically no good reason and whose original incident (Gulf of Tonkin incident) was a lie, the overthrow of a democratic government in Iran because the US didn't like the Iranian government thinking that they owned the oil in their own ground rather than US oil companies and the eventual replacement of Iran's government by extremist Muslims as a result, Reagan's unflinching support for terrorist forces in Nicaragua loyal to the previous dictator against the democratically elected government and his insistence on supplying the terrorists with weapons to help them wage war against the democratically elected government even if it meant going directly against congress and seeking to fund this program by selling weapons to the now-hostile extremist Iranian government, etc. Not that the situation in the 21st century has been a whole lot better, with Bush's unprovoked attack on Iraq being the stand-out, and the resultant foreseeable and predicted (by numerous people including Bernie Sanders) collapse of that nation and formation of ISIS.

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