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Thread: I will send the prophet Elijah...

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Like a thief in the night. And no one knows the day or hour when He we be back. But we shouldn't just look at the clouds. There is a world that needs to hear the good news.
    Is your soul as empty as it sounds when you force out these platitudes? You honor God with your lips, but your heart is far from Him, as is evidenced by your actions.

    Christ comes as a thief to the wicked, whose mascot and father is Satan (the owner of the house in the thief parable). It is Satan's kingdom which will be divided against itself and his metaphorical "house" (kingdom) which will be plundered at a time and in a manner he cannot foresee (otherwise he would take steps to prevent it).

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 12

    25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
    29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Satan's kingdom is explicitly called a household here and Christ calls Satan the "strong man" owner of the house, whom He, the thief, ties up and plunders.

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

    42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

    © Copyright Original Source



    The Bible provides a general outline of how God will bring about the downfall of Satan's kingdom (the smashing of the statue in Daniel), but the specifics are left out for obvious reasons. God's not going to tell His enemy how He plans to defeat him, else the enemy will prepare, as the parables state. But that is why the devil is "filled with fury" when he has been cast down from heaven during the tribulation and is on the verge of facing judgment. He thought he had planned for every eventuality until God's plan uppercuts him:

    Scripture Verse: Revelation 12

    12
    Therefore rejoice, you heavens
    and you who dwell in them!
    But woe to the earth and the sea,
    because the devil has gone down to you!
    He is filled with fury,
    because he knows that his time is short.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    The righteous are told to keep watch so that the day does not come upon them as a thief:

    Scripture Verse: 1 Thessalonians 5

    4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.

    © Copyright Original Source



    And the other verses which show that the righteous are meant to anticipate and be prepared for endtime events (what shall be the signs of thy coming?) and (look up, for your redemption draws near) have been covered and ignored here ad nauseam.
    Last edited by Darfius; 12-19-2019 at 06:35 PM.

  2. #12
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    John the Baptist being the prophesied forerunner is not controversial at all. Are you just trolling? I really hope you are just trolling. Otherwise, you need some help for your condition.
    Welcome to a Darfius thread where truth and facts always give way to wild speculation and crazy conjecturing.

    And here you thought Bizarro World was nuts.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  3. #13
    tWebber Christianbookworm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Welcome to a Darfius thread where truth and facts always give way to wild speculation and crazy conjecturing.

    And here you thought Bizarro World was nuts.
    I did some preliminary research on conspiracy theorists and found they aren't very nice people and believe in conspiracy theories to feel unique.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Elijah himself did appear at the transfiguration.

    Matt 17:1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Elijah himself did appear at the transfiguration.

    Matt 17:1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
    So you think Malachi was prophesying about three people seeing Elijah appear one night on top of a mountain?

  6. #16
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    Scripture Verse: Malachi 4:5

    “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Who do preterists say Elijah was? Or is this one of many verses they throw into the trash to believe what they are comfortable believing rather than what is true?
    That depends, in part, on what is meant by “that great and dreadful day”.

    It also depends, in part, not on what the text of Malachi might mean to us, but instead, on what the NT writers, and the community they were part of, made of it. The NT writers, like Jesus Himself, show great respect for Scripture. That did not prevent them using it with considerable freedom: for instance, when St Matthew quotes Hosea’s words “Out of Egypt I have called my son”, St Matthew is referring to Jesus, whereas Hosea is referring to (the kingdom of) Israel.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...1&version=NASB

    Or there is St John 15: the self-identification of Jesus as the True Vine presupposes knowledge of Psalm 80.8:

    8 You transplanted a vine from Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
    9 You cleared the ground for it,
    and it took root and filled the land.
    10 The mountains were covered with its shade,
    the mighty cedars with its branches.
    11 Its branches reached as far as the Sea,[a]
    its shoots as far as the River.[b]”

    Verse 8 following is about the people Israel - the Psalmist was not referring to Jesus. But Jesus, or St John, applies the Vine-imagery to Jesus. St John 15.1 is not an exegesis of Psalm 80.8, but an application of it, to Jesus, in the new theological setting created by the Christian community’s recognition of Jesus as the Messiah. The ancient text is understood in a fresh way, in a sense that cannot be found in the text as it stands.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...0&version=NASB

    The point of all this is, that the OT source of a NT quotation or a use of the OT text will not necessarily have any obvious connection to how that quotation or use functions in the NT.

    “That great and dreadful day” may refer to the Crucifixion, which is described in imagery which echoes these words of Zephaniah 1:

    14Near is the great day of the LORD, Near and coming very quickly;
    Listen, the day of the LORD!
    In it the warrior cries out bitterly.

    15A day of wrath is that day,
    A day of trouble and distress,
    A day of destruction and desolation,
    A day of darkness and gloom,
    A day of clouds and thick darkness,

    16A day of trumpet and battle cry
    Against the fortified cities
    And the high corner towers.

    17I will bring distress on men
    So that they will walk like the blind,
    Because they have sinned against the LORD;
    And their blood will be poured out like dust
    And their flesh like dung.

    18Neither their silver nor their gold
    Will be able to deliver them
    On the day of the LORD’S wrath;
    And all the earth will be devoured
    In the fire of His jealousy,
    For He will make a complete end,
    Indeed a terrifying one,
    Of all the inhabitants of the earth.”

    This passage may, with others, be behind St Matthew 27:

    45From the sixth hour until the ninth hourg darkness came over all the land. 46About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,h lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”i
    47When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He is calling Elijah.” 48One of them quickly ran and brought a sponge. He filled it with sour wine,j put it on a reed, and held it up for Jesus to drink.
    49But the others said, “Leave Him alone. Let us see if Elijah comes to save Him.”k50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified and said, “Truly this was the Son of God.”“

    https://biblehub.com/bsb/matthew/27.htm

    IMO, the events of verses 45 & 51-52 show that the Crucifixion was “that great and terrible day”. Elijah had come, since the events attending his coming had occurred. For first came the Baptist, “in the spirit and power of Elijah” - and then, not long after, the events of Malachi’s “great and dreadful day” occurred. If this is correct, verse 49 has a double meaning: as a misunderstanding of the Words of Jesus (by those present at the Crucifixion), and as an unknowingly accurate description of what had just happened (as appreciated by Christians).

    Malachi speaks of “that great and terrible day” - Zephaniah (and others) provide imagery that explains what Malachi meant. IMO, St Matthew’s theology of Christ adopts the imagery in Zephaniah, in order to present the Crucifixion as the day referred to by Malachi. And maybe not just the Crucifixion: it could be, that entire earthly Life of Jesus is “that great and terrible day”, climaxing in the Crucifixion - and the Fall of Jerusalem, though separated from the Life of Jesus by about 40 years, is perhaps regarded as part of “that day”.

    As for Ezekiel 37, it was fulfilled, & perhaps also began to be fulfilled, in St Matthew 27.51-53.

    Personally, St John Baptist was not Elijah. So he denied, when asked, that he was. But in function, he was. Since he was not altogether certain of the Messianic Identity of Jesus, it would make sense if his understanding of his own function was incomplete. One must also allow for the shaping of the Christian text by Christian theology, faith & tradition.

    It is never necessary to throw any passage of Scripture into the trash.

    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 12-23-2019 at 04:53 PM.

  7. #17
    tWebber
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    Scripture Verse: Matthew 11

    11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

    © Copyright Original Source



    John the Baptist fulfilling Elijah's mission was dependent upon whether the Jews were "willing to accept it." As we know, they were not, so while John the Baptist prepared the way for the Lord's first coming, the rejection of the Jews prevented him from fulfilling all Elijah was promised to fulfill. But there will come a day when the Jews will instead "accept" the sent Elijah:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 11

    11 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Let Scripture interpret Scripture, folks. It's no accident that Paul mentions Elijah before this whopper:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 11


    11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
    13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

    © Copyright Original Source



    A time is coming when they will be accepted because they will accept the sent Elijah and through him, Christ.

    Scripture Verse: Romans 11

    25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
    “The Deliverer will come from Zion,
    he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
    27
    “and this will be my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.

    © Copyright Original Source


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