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Thread: Christianity Today Op Ed

  1. #1281
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    If you frame the argument around the flawed assumption this is already a human person, then you have framed the argument around an idea anyone can show is false. A blastocyst is not yet a human person.
    I said nothing about it being a person. I said that it's human life. And it's not intrinsically valuable because of what it will become but because of what it is.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  2. #1282
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    You have the science and the philosophy reversed MM.
    I'm not sure that he has. As far as I know you're identifying 'human body' with the fetal stage. But that's not how the term is used within Science, so you're claiming a philosophical position: That there is some sort of essential difference between the blastocyst stage, and the fetal stage, without justification.

    I don't think innocence applies to non-sentient forms of the fetus.
    Innocense is simply the state of not having committed any moral evil. Since a fetus is a human, it has the potential for moral actions, but has not committed any yet, ergo it is innocent.

  3. #1283
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    This is a tangent that's been covered a million times so there's no need to get into it. But, briefly:
    Gotta love the "no need to get into it, BUT...."

    -- If we're going by biblical standards (or even much of modern Judaism), "life" equates to breath, which equates to birth. But that's not a necessary or even desirable standard so we should try to understand when an organism becomes a "being"

    -- A "being" necessitates the function of sensation and processing, which necessitates higher-level brain function. In human embryos, that higher-level brain function -- the fundamental substrate of personhood -- begins developing at 24 weeks and is typically developed around 30 weeks.

    -- Regardless of all of that, we're not bean counters.
    After which, you get into numbers

    "Number of lives" is meritorious as a metric only inasmuch as it relates to "amount of suffering". And since the suffering of a single child is infinitely greater than the suffering of a thousand 12-week embryos, an ethicist will have to consider the possibility that the greater evil is the suffering of the child. Certainly, we take this approach to contraception (as gametes are living cells, much like zygotes) and organ donation of brain-dead persons.
    It's OK, Sam, you've answered my question, and I'm not the least bit surprised.

    It is argued, therefore, that the purposeful oppression and suffering of children fleeing their dangerous homes to the protection of USA by separating them from their parents as a deterrent measure or forcing them to remain in Mexico while they await an asylum trial is a greater evil than abortions, at least those earlier than 24-30 weeks.

    --Sam
    And I reject your wacky notion that the PURPOSE of any immigration policy is the suffering of children. It may be "argued", but it's dumber than turtle poop, and just another liberal talking point!
    Last edited by Cow Poke; 01-19-2020 at 05:33 PM.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  4. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  5. #1284
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    I believe you are an enemy of the cross.
    Cool, the agnostic cry bully of Tweb thinks I'm enemy of the cross. I'll immediately dived into a deep dark depression.

    At least I don't claim to believe while others claim to believe so only to promote an agenda that is contrary to what Jesus taught.
    And what, pray tell, is the agenda I'm promoting that is contrary to what Jesus taught?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  6. #1285
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    I think it's notable that Cow Poke and others can advocate for some standard of Christianity where someone like Buttigieg (or myself) can't be called Christian....
    I'm calling you out on this dishonest assault -- I have NEVER said you can't be a Christian, and I have never stated that Buttigieg is not. And that includes your smarmy wording that allows you to couch this cowardly accusation by hiding it behind "advocating for some standard".

    Get out of the gutter, Sam.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  7. Amen Mountain Man amen'd this post.
  8. #1286
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    If the knee-jerk reaction...
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  9. #1287
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    No cp. I am saying that most of the time what is aborted can not be correctly classified a human body. My finger is human, but it is not a human body.
    Your finger is not a distinct being with its own unique DNA, Jim - and you know that.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  10. Amen Mountain Man, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  11. #1288
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I'm calling you out on this dishonest assault -- I have NEVER said you can't be a Christian, and I have never stated that Buttigieg is not. And that includes your smarmy wording that allows you to couch this cowardly accusation by hiding it behind "advocating for some standard".

    Get out of the gutter, Sam.
    Now don't go cutting up sentences to make an accusation. I could have more clearly separated your contention, which you clipped, about being a legitimate commentator of Scripture from others' contention (made by more than one person on this board) that gay and LGBTQ-affirming Christians are not, in fact, Christian.

    But it's pretty hard to imagine one without the other, either. If your response to a Christian discussing Scripture is "Why would I listen to them about anything Scriptural when they're married to another dude, I really don't think that leaves much room to maneuver.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  12. #1289
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Gotta love the "no need to get into it, BUT...."


    After which, you get into numbers


    It's OK, Sam, you've answered my question, and I'm not the least bit surprised.


    And I reject your wacky notion that the PURPOSE of any immigration policy is the suffering of children. It may be "argued", but it's dumber than turtle poop, and just another liberal talking point!

    All of this needs a lot less cutting and a lot more thought put into a response before I can even begin to comment. It's reactionary and not considered.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  13. Amen Charles amen'd this post.
  14. #1290
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Now don't go cutting up sentences to make an accusation.
    The quote is there for all to see, Sam -- That's why, unlike some of your supporters, I actually use the quote function.

    I could have more clearly separated your contention,
    You could have just stayed out of the gutter in the first place.

    which you clipped, about being a legitimate commentator of Scripture from others' contention (made by more than one person on this board) that gay and LGBTQ-affirming Christians are not, in fact, Christian.
    Perhaps you should have stuck with that.

    But it's pretty hard to imagine one without the other, either. If your response to a Christian discussing Scripture is "Why would I listen to them about anything Scriptural when they're married to another dude, I really don't think that leaves much room to maneuver.

    --Sam
    Perhaps in your twisted little world, Sam, but in mine, somebody can legitimately be a "Christian" and be either ignorant, or screwed up in the head, or simply be wrong.....

    I don't play this game like your colleague, Charles, stating somebody is "not a Christian" or "not a True Believer".

    Still waiting for that apology, without all the runaround.

    When you called me out on something, I immediately corrected, and didn't try to justify or rationalize.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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