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Thread: Christianity Today Op Ed

  1. #1301
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Since 2015 is the last year that we apparently have the numbers for, and there were, according to the CDC, 638,169 abortions from 49 of the 52 reporting areas, just how many of those do you think were okay?

    And people in comas don't have what can be called "a fully functioning brain" and depending on what you mean by that, neither do millions of people suffering from various neurological disorders. Is it okay to euthanize them as well?
    Not very many of them rogue. You are not thinking clearly. I'm not saying abortion on demand is OK. I'm saying the reason it is not ok can't be found in the idea that a fetus at 6 weeks is at that point a human person, or that a blastocyst is a human body. Making claims like that are not valid ways of arguing against the idea of abortion on demand because they are not true assessments of the realities for the developing fetus at that time.

    What I am challenging are dogmas rogue, not realities. Dogmas like the world must be 6000 years old or the Bible is not God's word. Dogmas like the Earth must stand still or the Bible is not God's word. Dogmas like the Christ comes as a King and not as a suffering servant. These ideas around abortion are dogmas built up by human beings that reflect neither reality nor the scripture.

    And yes, I'm challenging them. But that doesn't mean I reject the idea that a developing human life is a precious and wonderful thing that deserves the protection and respect of society. That killing, aborting a child is not something that we do because we made a mistake, or don't want our career path messed up.

    But neither am I saying that the 4 week old fetus is the equivalent of a newly born baby, or that a 4 week old fetus is the equivalent of 6 months gestation. I know your dogma won't allow you to accept it, but Exodus makes it very clear, especially when you look at how it was translated into the Septuagint, that 4week old fetus == 4 week old baby equivalence is not a Biblically based equivalence.

    And as Sam has pointed out, the Biblical standard for life is breath, to the point the Jewish tradition does not recognize the fetus as a human person until it takes its first breath. But the respect for life is so high in that same Jewish tradition that once the babe has seen the light, not even the imminent death of the mother can justify killing it to save her.

    These are all elements that must be factored into a Christian view of abortion. And I don't believe that when they are it opens much of a door. It certainly slams shut the idea that a woman can view the baby is a part of her body she can do with what she likes. And it certainly closes the door on late term abortions except as self-defense. The only door it opens is to the idea that there are extreme circumstances that are perhaps less than the imminent threat to the life of the mother that can justify early term abortion, like perhaps rape and incest.

    It may leave open the door to the idea that aborting a fetus very early is not the same as killing a child or late term abortion. And perverse minds will view that as permission. But the truth is the truth. And I would be willing to bet if we focused on the truth here and recognized that simple fact, it would open the door to defining the human person as beginning long before birth, at the point of independent brain activity. And that would stop the most heinous abortions - those of children in the womb that are viable outside it. And those that have developed to the point they are aware on some human level of what is happening to them.

    So I don't know why you feel the need to demonize my words. I'm not giving license to abortion on demand. But I am challenging irrational, unBiblical dogmas surrounding the issue.
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-19-2020 at 11:15 PM.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  2. #1302
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Gotta love the "no need to get into it, BUT...."



    After which, you get into numbers



    It's OK, Sam, you've answered my question, and I'm not the least bit surprised.



    And I reject your wacky notion that the PURPOSE of any immigration policy is the suffering of children. It may be "argued", but it's dumber than turtle poop, and just another liberal talking point!
    By Sam’s insane logic, any law that separates a parent from a child can be considered immoral.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  3. #1303
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    By Sam’s insane logic, any law that separates a parent from a child can be considered immoral.
    Try again.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  4. #1304
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Not very many of them rogue. You are not thinking clearly. I'm not saying abortion on demand is OK. I'm saying the reason it is not ok can't be found in the idea that a fetus at 6 weeks is at that point a human person, or that a blastocyst is a human body....
    A) the "personhood" issue is a smokescreen by the pro-abortion crowd, Jim.
    2) if the blastocyst is not a "human" body, what kind of body is it?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  5. Amen Mountain Man amen'd this post.
  6. #1305
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Try again.
    Yep, can’t refute it? I understand, but lots of laws cause suffering of children, are they immoral too?
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  7. #1306
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Yep, can’t refute it? I understand, but lots of laws cause suffering of children, are they immoral too?
    I think that's part of the "hate Trump" syndrome.

    • Find anything bad that happens as a result of something Trump did (children suffer)
    • Exaggerate it beyond actual fact (use pictures of children in cages from PREVIOUS administrations)
    • Ignore the fact that the same thing happened in previous administrations
    • Declare that the unintended consequences were the DESIRED RESULT of the legislation or policy
    • Demonize the person you want to blame for it all

    It's a process of not "following the facts", but selecting and arranging the 'facts' to support your narrative.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  8. Amen NorrinRadd, One Bad Pig amen'd this post.
  9. #1307
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    The quote is there for all to see, Sam -- That's why, unlike some of your supporters, I actually use the quote function.
    What is there for all to see is that you cut the quote into this:

    I think it's notable that Cow Poke and others can advocate for some standard of Christianity where someone like Buttigieg (or myself) can't be called Christian.... http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post703834
    And the entire sentence reads like this:

    I think it's notable that Cow Poke and others can advocate for some standard of Christianity where someone like Buttigieg (or myself) can't be called Christian or even legitimately commentate on the Gospel without raising anyone's hackles -- but pointing out that cruelty and oppression are greater sins, by the same biblical standards, and are not only exhibited by people on this forum but supported in powerful Christians crafting policy for millions amounts to "sanctimoniousness". http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post703771
    Leaving out the "or even" is pure manipulation. And now it is here for everyone to see.
    "That is the little thing, the small thing, which Trump demands of his followers: To call hot cold. To call black white. To call wrong right." Michael Gerson

  10. Amen oxmixmudd amen'd this post.
  11. #1308
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    By SamÂ’s insane logic, any law that separates a parent from a child can be considered immoral.
    Both John Kelly and DHS have said that the "zero tolerance" policy of separating children from their parents was implemented for deterrence -- children were being separated from their parents in order to send a message to potential asylum seekers that if you come to the US border seeking asylum, this is what will happen.

    The policy was designed such that children were separated without documentation -- or even the intent -- to allow for reunification. In the words of one administration official quoted at the time: "The expectation was that the kids would go to the Office of Refugee Resettlement, that the parents would get deported, and that no one would care." DHS argued in court that it had no way to reunite thousands of children and no documentation of their separation that would facilitate reunification.

    There was so little preparation done before implementation that children were crowded into cages with concrete floors and left virtually unattended for days or weeks, with moldy food and mylar blankets. Five year-olds cared for infants and children who were barely teenagers cared for five year-olds. The trauma -- again, intentionally inflicted as a deterrent measure -- will last these children's entire lives.

    There are still children from the original zero tolerance policy who have not been reunited with their parents. All to deter others from seeking asylum in USA.

    It's difficult for some people to summon compassion for immigrants at the border, even if they're children. I still remember how people here reacted to the child migrant wave of 2014 and feel sick. But it's easy not to be a ghoul. This was a ghoulish policy -- one that will forever stain the soul of the nation and every supporter of this administration. The only thing that will ever wipe it clean is repentance.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  12. Amen Charles, oxmixmudd amen'd this post.
  13. #1309
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Both John Kelly and DHS have said that the "zero tolerance" policy of separating children from their parents was implemented for deterrence -- children were being separated from their parents in order to send a message to potential asylum seekers that if you come to the US border seeking asylum, this is what will happen.

    The policy was designed such that children were separated without documentation -- or even the intent -- to allow for reunification. In the words of one administration official quoted at the time: "The expectation was that the kids would go to the Office of Refugee Resettlement, that the parents would get deported, and that no one would care." DHS argued in court that it had no way to reunite thousands of children and no documentation of their separation that would facilitate reunification.

    There was so little preparation done before implementation that children were crowded into cages with concrete floors and left virtually unattended for days or weeks, with moldy food and mylar blankets. Five year-olds cared for infants and children who were barely teenagers cared for five year-olds. The trauma -- again, intentionally inflicted as a deterrent measure -- will last these children's entire lives.

    There are still children from the original zero tolerance policy who have not been reunited with their parents. All to deter others from seeking asylum in USA.

    It's difficult for some people to summon compassion for immigrants at the border, even if they're children. I still remember how people here reacted to the child migrant wave of 2014 and feel sick. But it's easy not to be a ghoul. This was a ghoulish policy -- one that will forever stain the soul of the nation and every supporter of this administration. The only thing that will ever wipe it clean is repentance.

    --Sam
    And, as we can witness everyday, tweb is full of people calling themselves Christians who are willing to try to trivialize this cruelty by calling it TDS when they should rather confront it with human decency that is inherent in what they claim to believe.
    "That is the little thing, the small thing, which Trump demands of his followers: To call hot cold. To call black white. To call wrong right." Michael Gerson

  14. Amen oxmixmudd amen'd this post.
  15. #1310
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I think that's part of the "hate Trump" syndrome.

    • Find anything bad that happens as a result of something Trump did (children suffer)
    • Exaggerate it beyond actual fact (use pictures of children in cages from PREVIOUS administrations)
    • Ignore the fact that the same thing happened in previous administrations
    • Declare that the unintended consequences were the DESIRED RESULT of the legislation or policy
    • Demonize the person you want to blame for it all

    It's a process of not "following the facts", but selecting and arranging the 'facts' to support your narrative.
    These two posts do illustrate the made up little fantasy land you happen to be living in. You should note that sam and I and Charles etc. are not inventing little fantasy lists detailing your dastardly plans.
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-20-2020 at 10:14 AM.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

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