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Thread: Christianity Today Op Ed

  1. #1391
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Imagine Exodus defining that the accidental death of an unborn fetus as only requiring a fine from the offending person, as opposed to a life for a life if the mother also died.
    It's not at all clear that the passage is speaking of miscarriage. NET Bible translates the passage in this fashion:

    Scripture Verse: Exodus 21:22-25 NET


    22 “If men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury, the one who hit her will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman’s husband demands of him, and he will pay what the court decides. 23 But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

    © Copyright Original Source



    And gives the following translation note for the phrase "born prematurely":

    Source: NET Notes


    tn This line has occasioned a good deal of discussion. It may indicate that the child was killed, as in a miscarriage; or it may mean that there was a premature birth. The latter view is taken here because of the way the whole section is written: (1) “her children come out” reflects a birth and not the loss of children, (2) there is no serious damage, and (3) payment is to be set for any remuneration. The word אָסוֹן (ʾason) is translated “serious damage.” The word was taken in Mekilta to mean “death.” U. Cassuto says the point of the phrase is that neither the woman or the children that are born die (Exodus, 275). But see among the literature on this: M. G. Kline, “Lex Talionis and the Human Fetus,” JETS 20 (1977): 193-201; W. House, “Miscarriage or Premature Birth: Additional Thoughts on Exodus 21:22-25, ” WTJ 41 (1978): 108-23; S. E. Loewenstamm, “Exodus XXI 22-25, ” VT 27 (1977): 352-60.

    © Copyright Original Source



    https://netbible.org/bible/Exodus+21 (note 51)


    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Imagine that the Jewish Tradition, which forms the basis for Christian faith, does not consider the fetus a person until born, until its first breath.
    Some parts of Jewish Tradition has influenced Christian faith. Something being part of "Jewish Tradition" is no reason for a Christian to uncritically accept it, especially seeing as "Jewish Tradition" would have you condemn Jesus as a messianic pretender and practiticioner of sorcery.

    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Imagine that for millenia, independent of scientific knowledge of the critical nature of the brain to the mind and personality, Christians have debated when the soul actually become connected, infused, with/into the child, when many notable church father believing it was not at conception, but later, at quickening.
    Did any of them argue that the brain was essential to this process of ensoulment, or did they believe God would have been capable of ensouling the human embryo/fetus at any stage of the development process? Did God have to infuse the soul at a specific stage of development, or could He have chosen to do so at any point what so ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...1869-1.1449517
    Source: above

    The Catholic Church’s current position on abortion is 144 years old. In the 1869 document Apostolicae Sedis, Pope Pius IX declared the penalty of excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy. Up to then Catholic teaching was that no homicide was involved if abortion took place before the foetus was infused with a soul, known as “ensoulment”.


    Separate consciousness
    This was believed to occur at “quickening”, when the mother detected the child move for the first time in her womb. It indicated a separate consciousness.

    In 1591, Pope Gregory XIV determined it took place at 166 days of pregnancy, almost 24 weeks. That is the current legal limit for abortion in the UK. It was Catholic Church teaching until 1869.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Did Pope Gregory XIV base his judgement on when ensoulment took place on whether the fetus had developed a brain or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Imagine for a moment that it is possible some the the dogma around the issue of abortion is not entirely scriptural.
    Done. Nothing changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Imagine for a moment that there are times when science informs our understanding of scripture.
    What you wrote above in post #1385 was not an instance of science informing our understanding of scripture. It was a just-so story about the necessity of the brain in the development of human consciousness, completely ignoring the spiritual aspect of existence, written in such a way that even the most hard-line materialist and proponent of scientism could have enthusiastically agreed with pretty much 100% of it.

  2. Amen Cerebrum123, Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  3. #1392
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    MM - I never said that. This is significant misunderstanding on your part.

    Attachment 42298

    If I look at a spectrum. I can look on the right and see it is red. And I can look on the left and see it is violet. And I can look in the middle and see it is green.

    But I cannot define the precise point where it moves from yellow to green, or orange to red, or green to blue. But i can safely define a frequency where it IS yellow. And I can safely define a frequency where it IS green. And blue, And red. And orange.

    So, I am NOTsaying we can define a precise boundary to the minute, or the hour, or even the day where the baby has consciousness on one side and does not have consciousness on the other.

    I am saying that just like we can define green, or blue, or red without saying the precise boundary where they change from those colors, we can define a point given the state of development where we can know it does NOT have consciousness. And we can define another point where where we know it DOES have consciousness.
    So your solution is to ballpark it and hope to God you're right. Terrific.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  4. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  5. #1393
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    MM - I never said that. This is significant misunderstanding on your part.

    Attachment 42298

    If I look at a spectrum. I can look on the right and see it is red. And I can look on the left and see it is violet. And I can look in the middle and see it is green.

    But I cannot define the precise point where it moves from yellow to green, or orange to red, or green to blue. But i can safely define a frequency where it IS yellow. And I can safely define a frequency where it IS green. And blue, And red. And orange.

    So, I am NOTsaying we can define a precise boundary to the minute, or the hour, or even the day where the baby has consciousness on one side and does not have consciousness on the other.

    I am saying that just like we can define green, or blue, or red without saying the precise boundary where they change from those colors, we can define a point given the state of development where we can know it does NOT have consciousness. And we can define another point where where we know it DOES have consciousness.
    What if you’re wrong and it turns out that life does begin at conception. What than?
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  6. #1394
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    What if you’re wrong and it turns out that life does begin at conception. What than?
    Does that equation effect your view of the death penalty? Just wondering.

  7. #1395
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    So your solution is to ballpark it and hope to God you're right. Terrific.
    Always the sarcasm. No, that is not it either MM. I know blue is blue, and I know the green is green. Likewise I can know when there is no consciousness, and I can know when there is. As long as the cutoff is before consciousness can arrive, there is no guesswork.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  8. #1396
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    What if you’re wrong and it turns out that life does begin at conception. What than?
    Life does begin at conception. Consciousness, the mind, however, does not.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  9. #1397
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Does that equation effect your view of the death penalty? Just wondering.
    Jimmy, what is the punishment for murder, in the Bible?
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  10. #1398
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Life does begin at conception. Consciousness, the mind, however, does not.
    Does the Bible make a distinction, between the two?
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  11. #1399
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Always the sarcasm. No, that is not it either MM. I know blue is blue, and I know the green is green. Likewise I can know when there is no consciousness, and I can know when there is. As long as the cutoff is before consciousness can arrive, there is no guesswork.
    For the sake of argument, suppose you can definitively say, "At this point, no consciousness; at this point, consciousness," but what about the massive vague area in between? If a fetus doesn't have consciousness at moment X, what about X+1 millisecond? X+5 milliseconds? X+24 hours? X+one week? If a fetus develops consciousness at moment Y then what about Y-1 millisecond? Minus 10-minutes? Minus 2-weeks? What's the cutoff? And how do know for certain you're correct?

    And for that matter, what if early consciousness exists in a way that is not detectable with current technology? It's only relatively recently that we've been able to detect and monitor brain activity, and our ability to do so is still relatively crude. 100-years ago, you would have been arguing that a fetus was less "valuable" at a much later point in the human life cycle simply because of the limited knowledge at the time. What will your argument look like 100-years from now?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  12. Amen Cow Poke, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  13. #1400
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Jimmy, what is the punishment for murder, in the Bible?
    Noting, of course, that the Sixth Commandment is not about killing, but about murder. Taking the life of a murder is not "murder".
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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