Christianity Today Op Ed

[oxmixmudd]

I have friends and family that are ex criminals, that are former druggies, and I’ve hung out with adulterers, druggies, etc. Does that make me a druggie, adulterer, etc? You remind me so much of this story:

Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”

Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Luke 5: 29-32, NIV

Churches should be hospitals, not mausoleums. Anyway, guilt, by association is a logical fallacy that you’re non TDS infested brain would get and you would call this out if Jorge tried to use this reasoning, yet you accept it here because it tells you everything you want to hear. Trump has pretty much been under a microscope, for the past three years. Can you name a single crime that Trump has actually been accused of committing that has evidence to back it? Just one? Millions of dollars flushed down the drain and the Democrats couldn’t even list a single crime committed. Justice is about what you did, not what somebody you associated with did.

There is a huge difference between the repentant and the unrepentant Pix. You are mixing apples and oranges and pretending they are the same. They are not. If I hang out with criminals for the purpose of committing crime, it is quite the different thing than if my association with criminals is part of a ministry aimed at redeeming them.


Donald Trump's associations are all the former, not the latter.

Since the DOJ does not indict a sitting president, it is impossible to 'name a crime he has been accused' of in the legal sense.

But little_monkey gave a good list. And the most obvious one of all is the payoff Cohen made at Trump's behest for which he now sits in a jail cell. This was Trump's crime as much as it was Cohen's. But Cohen is in jail, and Trump has your perverse adulation.

[Jaecp]

You're wasting your time talking to fake Christians Oxy.

The Antichrist showed up and a significant amount of American Christians rolled out the red carpet

Best to accept that and move on

[Terraceth]

Indeed! I'm glad you read it :)

Well, actually, my "interesting" comment had nothing to do with the content of the article (which I barely skimmed through), but the fact National Review published it.

I don't have much of an opinion on whether Trump should be impeached. Whether he's completely innocent of the alleged wrongdoings or is the most corrupt President to ever be in office will have exactly zero effect what candidates I support in 2020, so why bother doing all the research necessary to figure it out? (To explain: There's no Senate election in my state, my House district is so liberal that the Republicans probably won't even bother running anyone--they didn't last election--and my presidential vote is locked pretty hard for Brian Carroll)

[Jaecp]

Well, actually, my "interesting" comment had nothing to do with the content of the article (which I barely skimmed through), but the fact National Review published it.

I don't have much of an opinion on whether Trump should be impeached. Whether he's completely innocent of the alleged wrongdoings or is the most corrupt President to ever be in office will have exactly zero effect what candidates I support in 2020, so why bother doing all the research necessary to figure it out? (To explain: There's no Senate election in my state, my House district is so liberal that the Republicans probably won't even bother running anyone--they didn't last election--and my presidential vote is locked pretty hard for Brian Carroll)

You should still care about impeachment because it's a check on illegitimate use of power and, imho, seeing a conservative column talking about it will probably be better for you than reading from some random libs take on it or hearing it through osmosis. Further, it's the president, like... It matters for a whole host of reasons

Also, you've got lots of other races! State reps, school board, port commissioner, dog catcher, something! Vote!

Does your state not have a voters pamphlet? Mine (Washington) has a great system where every candidate/issue gets a page and it gets mailed to my house along with my ballot (which is super nice)

[Cow Poke]

You're wasting your time talking to fake Christians Oxy.

And, there ya have it, Ox.

[Terraceth]

You should still care about impeachment because it's a check on illegitimate use of power and, imho, seeing a conservative column talking about it will probably be better for you than reading from some random libs take on it or hearing it through osmosis. Further, it's the president, like... It matters for a whole host of reasons

But why should it matter to me? My actions are going to be the same regardless of whether Trump is guilty or not, so why does it make a difference to me if he is or not?

So I can go through the exhausting process of researching and examining all of the arguments, all to do nothing more than satisfy intellectual curiosity... or I can just spend all that time on something more interesting and relevant to me. Given how many things there are that actually can affect me that I try to puzzle out, I don't see much reason to actually add this onto them.

Also, you've got lots of other races! State reps, school board, port commissioner, dog catcher, something! Vote!

And what relevance does the impeachment of Donald Trump have to do with any of those races? It only relates to the House, Senate, and President races. No other candidate is in any position to really do anything about it.

[Jaecp]

I mean, it should matter to anyone who has an interest in civics and in good governance in general.

I also think you're really overestimating how much time I'm implicitly asking of you. The national review link is sufficient and there isn't much of a counterargument being presented. Trump's supporters attacked the process during the hearings, but that's about it.

Presumably, if he is a giant corrupt tool you'd also want anyone supporting him to be gone, too.

To be perfectly frank, I'm not sure why you're asking me to tell you why to care.

How about I don't post for a couple hours and instead of replying to me about whether or not you should think about giving a damn you spend 5 minutes on what the most respected conservative publication in America thinks about it and you'll find out whether you care since as exhausting as you seem to think this will be... It'll be more exhausting getting it from me piecemeal and, like, are you really trusting some random guy on the internet to convince you to care? We don't have a relationship and you have no reason to care about my motivations or reasoning. That's why I shared a national review article

As for the elections you mentioned, I mean, nobody you're voting for has anything to do with impeachment anyway because it'll be over with by the time voting happens. Tbh, kinda confused by your confusion. I'm just always going to tell people to vote and you, coincidentally, mentioned the only elections everyone is aware exists so like, I'm gonna remind folks that only mention president, Congress and governor that there's other races because nationally a solid 1/3rd of the country forgets we have elections in odd years ;) no insult intended

[oxmixmudd]

And, there ya have it, Ox.

? What do I have CP?

[Terraceth]

Presumably, if he is a giant corrupt tool you'd also want anyone supporting him to be gone, too.

And again, this would affect my actions in the 2020 election... how, exactly? Let's suppose Trump is the guiltiest person ever and therefore anyone who votes in the House or Senate to acquit him is bad. So... how would that affect my 2020 vote? Well, obviously, any candidates for positions that had nothing to do with impeachment (i.e. everyone outside of the federal level) don't matter. So it comes to the federal level, i.e. Senate, House, President.

Would it matter in my Senate election vote? Nope, there isn't one this year.

Would it matter in my House election vote? Well, my vote doesn't matter because my district is so astoundingly liberal that the our Democratic representative is guaranteed re-election. The Republicans might not even run anyone, they didn't last election. But if they did, I'd vote for them just out of simple protest because I don't particularly care for our representative.

Would it matter in my presidential vote? Whatever small chance I had of voting for Trump evaporated after his ill-advised abrupt Syria withdrawal, and I don't like any of the Democratic candidates. None of them are getting my vote or support regardless of whether Trump deserves impeachment.

So what does the impeachment issue matter to me?

To be perfectly frank, I'm not sure why you're asking me to tell you why to care.

I'm... not? I said I didn't care too much about the impeachment, but then felt I should give an explanation and included the note regarding the elections. You then came in and argued that I should be caring more. I never asked you to tell me why, you made that decision yourself.

[JimL]

And again, this would affect my actions in the 2020 election... how, exactly? Let's suppose Trump is the guiltiest person ever and therefore anyone who votes in the House or Senate to acquit him is bad. So... how would that affect my 2020 vote? Well, obviously, any candidates for positions that had nothing to do with impeachment (i.e. everyone outside of the federal level) don't matter. So it comes to the federal level, i.e. Senate, House, President.

Would it matter in my Senate election vote? Nope, there isn't one this year.

Would it matter in my House election vote? Well, my vote doesn't matter because my district is so astoundingly liberal that the our Democratic representative is guaranteed re-election. The Republicans might not even run anyone, they didn't last election. But if they did, I'd vote for them just out of simple protest because I don't particularly care for our representative.

Would it matter in my presidential vote? Whatever small chance I had of voting for Trump evaporated after his ill-advised abrupt Syria withdrawal, and I don't like any of the Democratic candidates. None of them are getting my vote or support regardless of whether Trump deserves impeachment.

So what does the impeachment issue matter to me?

I'm... not? I said I didn't care too much about the impeachment, but then felt I should give an explanation and included the note regarding the elections. You then came in and argued that I should be caring more. I never asked you to tell me why, you made that decision yourself.

If you knew what was going on, had an opinion, you could influence, or at least attempt to influence, your Senators decisions regarding impeachment whether they are up for election in 2020 or not. What constituents think matters to their Senators. If you had an actual opinion regarding the evidence, perhaps you'd want to be sure of an honest trial, allowing documentary evidence admitted and witness testimony and such which are things your Senator will need vote on. Apathy breeds corruption.

[lilpixieofterror]

There is a huge difference between the repentant and the unrepentant Pix. You are mixing apples and oranges and pretending they are the same. They are not. If I hang out with criminals for the purpose of committing crime, it is quite the different thing than if my association with criminals is part of a ministry aimed at redeeming them.


Donald Trump's associations are all the former, not the latter.

Since the DOJ does not indict a sitting president, it is impossible to 'name a crime he has been accused' of in the legal sense.

But little_monkey gave a good list. And the most obvious one of all is the payoff Cohen made at Trump's behest for which he now sits in a jail cell. This was Trump's crime as much as it was Cohen's. But Cohen is in jail, and Trump has your perverse adulation.

3 years of investigations seem to have been excellent at spending millions of dollars and getting endless airtime, but when it comes to actual listings of crimes committed, it comes up empty every time, so let’s look at the conclusions Jim:

1. Trump is a master criminal that would make the best James Bond villains green with envy.
2. Our investigators are incompetent morons that couldn’t find ice in Antarctica.
3. Trump hasn’t committed an actual crime of any real sufficient grounds for impeachment.

While I do find your rants about Cohen’s payoffs amusing, didn’t congress have a fund in place to pay off women accusing them of sexual harassment? Likewise, politicians have been paying off the women they have affairs with, for centuries and none of them seemed to have cared, until 2016. Hypocrisy, got to love it.

[oxmixmudd]

And, there ya have it, Ox.

3 years of investigations seem to have been excellent at spending millions of dollars and getting endless airtime, but when it comes to actual listings of crimes committed, it comes up empty every time, so let’s look at the conclusions Jim:

1. Trump is a master criminal that would make the best James Bond villains green with envy.
2. Our investigators are incompetent morons that couldn’t find ice in Antarctica.
3. Trump hasn’t committed an actual crime of any real sufficient grounds for impeachment.

While I do find your rants about Cohen’s payoffs amusing, didn’t congress have a fund in place to pay off women accusing them of sexual harassment? Likewise, politicians have been paying off the women they have affairs with, for centuries and none of them seemed to have cared, until 2016. Hypocrisy, got to love it.

Plenty was found pix. The idea nothing was found is a lie fostered by the conservatives who will support Trump at all cost. How they are able to find so many people willing to consume that lie is beyond me

[Jaecp]

And again, this would affect my actions in the 2020 election... how, exactly? Let's suppose Trump is the guiltiest person ever and therefore anyone who votes in the House or Senate to acquit him is bad. So... how would that affect my 2020 vote? Well, obviously, any candidates for positions that had nothing to do with impeachment (i.e. everyone outside of the federal level) don't matter. So it comes to the federal level, i.e. Senate, House, President.

Would it matter in my Senate election vote? Nope, there isn't one this year.

Would it matter in my House election vote? Well, my vote doesn't matter because my district is so astoundingly liberal that the our Democratic representative is guaranteed re-election. The Republicans might not even run anyone, they didn't last election. But if they did, I'd vote for them just out of simple protest because I don't particularly care for our representative.

Would it matter in my presidential vote? Whatever small chance I had of voting for Trump evaporated after his ill-advised abrupt Syria withdrawal, and I don't like any of the Democratic candidates. None of them are getting my vote or support regardless of whether Trump deserves impeachment.

So what does the impeachment issue matter to me?

I'm... not? I said I didn't care too much about the impeachment, but then felt I should give an explanation and included the note regarding the elections. You then came in and argued that I should be caring more. I never asked you to tell me why, you made that decision yourself.

I suppose, but I think we've got a miscommunication in here somewhere

Fundamentally, as an American citizen it's my personal belief that our citizens should have a baseline interest in how our government operates and such because that's in the good interest of our nation.

I can't really explain all the myriad ways your ignorance might affect your life. Maybe it won't. Maybe it's too much of a pain I the ass, but like...

I'm literally only talking to you because you quoted me and called something interesting and I assumed you had read the link.

This stuff matters. Crimes in our name matter. Ethics and morality and good governance matter. They simply do.

Having knowledge of what happened this time will help in future times. Ignorance has unintended consequences.

Like, it's a 5 minute read that you already said was interesting by dint of who published it.

Why not simply read it and find out of it sparks your interest? You're on a discussion forum


To be honest, I'm flabbergasted.

[Tassman]

That's why I said suspect. Obviously I don't know until his taxes are revealed. I believe it's highly unlikely attorneys are going to risk criminal prosecution of their clients, because then they'd be out of business as tax attorneys. And looking for legal loopholes to pay as less tax as possible is not immoral because A) whether or not the taxes are being used in a moral way and what it's being used for is highly debatable, and B) the morality in the way the entire US tax system is set up is itself highly debatable.

Again, this is all speculation on your part. The only way we can find out what is in in Trump’s tax returns is when they are released. This is something Trump appears remarkably reluctant to do. Furthermore, given Trump’s checkered history of unscrupulous financial management (e.g. Trump University and gross misuse of Trump Foundation funds and etc), one can be forgiven for thinking that Trump has something to hide.

[rogue06]

Plenty was found pix. The idea nothing was found is a lie fostered by the conservatives who will support Trump at all cost. How they are able to find so many people willing to consume that lie is beyond me

Then you'll be able to list that "plenty" along with the legitimate corroborating evidence.

And keep in mind, "heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from another" belongs in a song not a courtroom.