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Christianity Today Op Ed
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My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI said nothing about whether or not a fetus is of value to society. I said that it is inherently valuable in and of itself.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View Post"Inherent value" doesn't get you a foot closer to your conclusion here. Value doesn't confer a right, inherent or attributed by an external agent.
--Sam
Whether value is used synonymously for dignity, or the value is based in inherent dignity, the merit of the fetus is predicated on the assumption of worth, value, or dignity.
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Originally posted by Sam View Post"Inherent value" doesn't get you a foot closer to your conclusion here. Value doesn't confer a right, inherent or attributed by an external agent.
--SamSome may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou can track the progress of development, sure, but to pretend that it's discrete divisions rather than a continuous, unbroken whole is pure dogma.
I'm not talking about discrete division in the way you keep trying to force the topic to. It is a simple fact that a brain develops in a baby. There is a period of time when there is no brain, no nerve tissue of any kind. Then gradually, some cells differentiate into nerve cells at the right place and the right time and a very basic nervous system begins to develop. During any of these times, there is nothing that would equate to 'consciousness' in the forming child. Nothing that would make it a person, there is no mind there yet (which as we know is where the person is). There is however a later time when an actual brain begins to form and a time after that where a very basic kind of brain activity begins to develop. Now somewhere between that and a later stages where the majority of those 100 trillion neurons most of us have this child becomes the very basic root of what we call a 'person'. We can't know exactly where, but somewhere between that most basic brain and 6 to nine months the childs 'mind' becomes a reality.
And while we can't know exactly when that happens, we know that it isn't there in those early stages before the brain even has a few thousand neurons, and we know that by the time the fetus has reached 6 months gestation it IS there. So the point is, it happens DURING gestation, and we know enough to draw safe boundaries around when it hasn't happened yet. In times we know there is no mind, this fetus is not yet a human being or human person. There is no mind there yet. And without a mind, we don't consider any human flesh to have rights. When a persons brain has died there is only the body left, an empty shell, and it doesn't have rights.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-23-2020, 07:24 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAssuming a normal pregnancy, a developing fetus does not merely have the potential to develop brain function, it inevitably will. But this has nothing to do with why we should protect it. A fetus is not inherently valuable because of what it could be but because of what it is.
The issue is not value. A fetus has great value even from its first cellular division. But it is not yet a human being, and killing it is not yet murder. But it can, and normally will become a human being. And so neither is it simply 'two cells'. To me the distinction is not value, but when does the abortion become murder. When does the developing fetus become a separate human person and thus gain the right to be considered wholly separate from the mother as a person. I don't believe that is at conception. But I believe it is a good while before birth. Certainly by the third trimester, but probably by the end of the first or at the latest sometime in the early part of the second trimester is when that threshold is crossed. And after that point, every abortion that does not threaten the life of a mother murders a child. Before that transition, I don't believe an abortion can be fairly or legitimately classed as murder., even though in most cases it is wrong, because it is a developing child and will become a person if left to develop. That makes every abortion a travesty no matter when they are done, even necessary ones.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-23-2020, 07:39 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
Comment
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI don't know how you come up with these bizarre extrapolations that you invent out of my posts and then argue against, but it would help if you could take a little time to try to understand the points being made before your respond. It would waste a lot less time.
I'm not talking about discrete division in the way you keep trying to force the topic to. It is a simple fact that a brain develops in a baby. There is a period of time when there is no brain, no nerve tissue of any kind. Then gradually, some cells differentiate into nerve cells at the right place and the right time and a very basic nervous system begins to develop. During any of these times, there is nothing that would equate to 'consciousness' in the forming child. Nothing that would make it a person, there is no mind there yet (which as we know is where the person is). There is however a later time when an actual brain begins to form and a time after that where a very basic kind of brain activity begins to develop. Now somewhere between that and a later stages where the majority of those 100 trillion neurons most of us have this child becomes the very basic root of what we call a 'person'. We can't know exactly where, but somewhere between that most basic brain and 6 to nine months the childs 'mind' becomes a reality.
And while we can't know exactly when that happens, we know that it isn't there in those early stages before the brain even has a few thousand neurons, and we know that by the time the fetus has reached 6 months gestation it IS there. So the point is, it happens DURING gestation, and we know enough to draw safe boundaries around when it hasn't happened yet. In times we know there is no mind, this fetus is not yet a human being or human person. There is no mind there yet. And without a mind, we don't consider any human flesh to have rights. When a persons brain has died there is only the body left, an empty shell, and it doesn't have rights.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI don't know how you come up with these bizarre extrapolations that you invent out of my posts...Last edited by Mountain Man; 01-23-2020, 08:38 AM.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostImagine being a Christian who believes in the existence of the soul and it's continued existence after bodily death and God as an unembodied mind/spirit and still arguing that the existence of a nervous system and/or brain is a pre-requisite for granting a human being personhood.
Imagine that the Jewish Tradition, which forms the basis for Christian faith, does not consider the fetus a person until born, until its first breath.
Imagine that for millenia, independent of scientific knowledge of the critical nature of the brain to the mind and personality, Christians have debated when the soul actually becomes connected, infused, with/into the child, and that for over 1.5 millenia many notable church fathers believed it was not at conception, but later, at quickening.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...1869-1.1449517
Imagine for a moment that it is possible some the the dogma around the issue of abortion is not entirely scriptural.
Imagine for a moment that there are times when science can inform our understanding of scripture.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-23-2020, 08:39 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI'm not inventing anything. You're the one arguing that at some specific point along the unbroken continuum of a human life, a being suddenly acquires a value it did not have literally a moment before. That's dogma.
spectrum.jpg
If I look at a spectrum. I can look on the right and see it is red. And I can look on the left and see it is violet. And I can look in the middle and see it is green.
But I cannot define the precise point where it moves from yellow to green, or orange to red, or green to blue. But i can safely define a frequency where it IS yellow. And I can safely define a frequency where it IS green. And blue, And red. And orange.
So, I am NOTsaying we can define a precise boundary to the minute, or the hour, or even the day where the baby has consciousness on one side and does not have consciousness on the other.
I am saying that just like we can define green, or blue, or red without saying the precise boundary where they change from those colors, we can define a point given the state of development where we can know it does NOT have consciousness. And we can define another point where where we know it DOES have consciousness.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-23-2020, 09:03 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
Comment
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostImagine Exodus defining that the accidental death of an unborn fetus as only requiring a fine from the offending person, as opposed to a life for a life if the mother also died.
And gives the following translation note for the phrase "born prematurely":
https://netbible.org/bible/Exodus+21 (note 51)
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostImagine that the Jewish Tradition, which forms the basis for Christian faith, does not consider the fetus a person until born, until its first breath.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostImagine that for millenia, independent of scientific knowledge of the critical nature of the brain to the mind and personality, Christians have debated when the soul actually become connected, infused, with/into the child, when many notable church father believing it was not at conception, but later, at quickening.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostImagine for a moment that it is possible some the the dogma around the issue of abortion is not entirely scriptural.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostImagine for a moment that there are times when science informs our understanding of scripture.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostMM - I never said that. This is significant misunderstanding on your part.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]42298[/ATTACH]
If I look at a spectrum. I can look on the right and see it is red. And I can look on the left and see it is violet. And I can look in the middle and see it is green.
But I cannot define the precise point where it moves from yellow to green, or orange to red, or green to blue. But i can safely define a frequency where it IS yellow. And I can safely define a frequency where it IS green. And blue, And red. And orange.
So, I am NOTsaying we can define a precise boundary to the minute, or the hour, or even the day where the baby has consciousness on one side and does not have consciousness on the other.
I am saying that just like we can define green, or blue, or red without saying the precise boundary where they change from those colors, we can define a point given the state of development where we can know it does NOT have consciousness. And we can define another point where where we know it DOES have consciousness.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostMM - I never said that. This is significant misunderstanding on your part.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]42298[/ATTACH]
If I look at a spectrum. I can look on the right and see it is red. And I can look on the left and see it is violet. And I can look in the middle and see it is green.
But I cannot define the precise point where it moves from yellow to green, or orange to red, or green to blue. But i can safely define a frequency where it IS yellow. And I can safely define a frequency where it IS green. And blue, And red. And orange.
So, I am NOTsaying we can define a precise boundary to the minute, or the hour, or even the day where the baby has consciousness on one side and does not have consciousness on the other.
I am saying that just like we can define green, or blue, or red without saying the precise boundary where they change from those colors, we can define a point given the state of development where we can know it does NOT have consciousness. And we can define another point where where we know it DOES have consciousness."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostSo your solution is to ballpark it and hope to God you're right. Terrific.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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