Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Christianity Today Op Ed

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Sam View Post
    A good while before I left, most folks on the opposite side of the argument had stopped being thoughtful or even consistent in their processes, leading to obvious absurdities and hypocrisies. It's gotten worse since then.

    A lesson I took from an old, beloved professor: "There comes a point where you stop arguing and start preaching."

    Here, we have a question of why Trump, a man not known for his nuance or deep knowledge of American culture and history, watched the events of Charlottesville unfold and decided to spend the bulk of his press conference both-siding a rally organized and attended by explicit white nationalists and neo-Nazis. We've seen that even a group purportedly there without any business with white nationalists nevertheless has tie-ins that should be downright shocking to its supporters. Instead, they're just deflecting from any serious consideration of it.

    Not much here to be too thoughtful about anymore. Y'all have changed in many disturbing ways.

    --Sam
    Project much?
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

    My Personal Blog

    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

    Quill Sword

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      They are on the right side in that they are taking a stand against WS and neo-Nazi's. They are on the wrong side in that they are trying to use force to express their dissent. Free speech is the issue the neo-Nazi's are USING in an effort to enlist others that normally would not support them in their fight against those that oppose them (antifa). I think it makes more sense to oppose the embracing of violence by both, and the ideology of the WS/neo Nazi's than it does to be used as a pawn by the WS/Neo-NAzis to effectively fight for their point of view against antifa. IOW, don't throw out the baby with the bath water. It is in everyone's interest to speak out against WS/neo-Nazi ideology. But by embracing violence, antifa dilutes their efforts by allowing for legitimate reasons to oppose them.



      Maybe the above makes it clearer. Free speech is important, but it is also a rallying cry of the WS/Neo-Nazis against those that oppose them. Antifa is figthing the WS/Neo Nazi ideology, as we ALL should be. But they have embraced violent tactics, which puts them in the wrong, and will potentially make them the moral equivalent of what they are against.



      Well that is where you need to rethink things. If conservatism can't be separated from WS/Neo-Nazi thought, then there is a problem. Christian Conservatives should not be part of any rally that features WS/Neo-Nazis, and those that show up to legitimate Christian Conservative causes should be as roundly condemned by the Christian conservatives as they are by antifa - just w/o the violence.
      So we should stop free speech if we think it is "bad" - great. I can't wait till someone does that to you.

      The whole point of free speech is to allow dissenting speech. If you don't like it, make your own speech. If the KKK are 'recruiting' people, then protest against them. If they are being violent, arrest them for breaking the law. And again, the main opponent of the Antifa seems to be conservatives and especially Trump supporters. Which is probably why you are defending them. If they WERE Trump supporters you would be shouting about how they need to be stopped and they are fascists.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Yeah Andy Ngo beat himself up and put himself in the hospital. Or maybe he hired Jussie Smollett to beat him up?

        You want to ignore everything else like the guy who tried to blow up the ICE detention center, or that antifa professor who was going around hitting people with a bicycle lock. Very smart. Ignore everything but one thing you think you can say was "fake" because that means everything is fake, right?

        What about this that happened in Portland where a Bernie Sanders supporter was beaten because he wouldn't give up the American Flag he was holding?
        ----
        A man assaulted by Antifa supporters in a video that went viral following a demonstration against a far-right rally in Portland, Oregon, says he is not a fascist but a Bernie Sanders-supporting progressive and registered Democrat.

        On August 4, Portland-based far-right group Patriot Prayer rallied at the city's Tom McCall Waterfront Park. But it was opposed by a larger number of counter-demonstrators from various left-wing and liberal groups in the city.

        Footage shows Paul Welch, 38, wrestling with masked anti-fascists for possession of the American flag he brought to the counter-demo. They demanded he let go of the flag, calling it a "fascist symbol," reported The Oregonian.

        "The right and certainly a lot of smaller groups like Patriot Prayer might rush to things like the flag and try to take it up as, 'This is our symbol exclusively,'" Welch, a protest regular, told The Oregonian. "Part of my thinking was to take it back."

        One of the men in the video beats Welch on the legs with a club-like object before striking him on the head with it. Welch is left bleeding on the floor, holding his head, as his assailants calmly walk off.

        He feared he would be beaten to death but was taken to hospital by onlookers and his head gash stapled back together by doctors. Welch, who said he voted for socialist Sanders in the 2016 Democratic primary, was also concussed.
        https://www.newsweek.com/antifa-viol...-video-1082072

        He probably deserved it though, carrying a the flag of hate.
        Remember those pictures of the antifa thug who lost his scarf and ended up getting sprayed with bear mace by his buddies because they didn't recognize him with his face uncovered?

        I posted them awhile back but can't for the life of me remember where.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          So we should stop free speech if we think it is "bad" - great. I can't wait till someone does that to you.
          I didn't say anything like that, and you know it. So from that I will conclude your goal is working up a fight with me. So when/If you want to have a reasoned, objective discussion in the future, I'll be glad to have one. Till then - find another target I guess.
          Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-08-2020, 02:22 PM.
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam View Post
            Generic caloric restriction with increased time on the erg. Reclaiming my jawline before it goes missing.

            Current schedule is good for 16-hour intermittent fasting so I might try that out, too.

            --Sam
            Try the cali-potatoes - I like both but the taters are better to me.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
              [ATTACH=CONFIG]41944[/ATTACH]

              Here's a screenshot of a PM after local far right videographer and fixture at local doubting the series of events. This guy pals around with the same folks that Ngo does

              Edity voice to talk messed up, lol
              The video that I mentioned starts with a antifa thug walking up and sucker punching him on the side of the face where he had the black eye.

              IOW, your source is about as trustworthy as you are.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Probably not directly.
                And you get upset when folks say you have TDS

                If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and does duck-like things in duck-like ways...

                Just sayin'

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
                  Yeah, like UTR was supposed to be uniting the alt right with the mainstream. It failed, thankfully

                  Also,

                  All Confederate monuments should be replaced anyway. They're mostly cheap junk put up during civil rights movement by racist fools that wanted to intimidate black people
                  Says the racist who supports killing blacks by claiming they aren't human.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    Says the racist who supports killing blacks by claiming they aren't human.
                    I'd like to see a link to this.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      Says the racist who supports killing blacks by claiming they aren't human.
                      Come on.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
                        Uh, so, I don't think thats really the core issue. High tax rates pre-Reagan incentive reinvesting in companies/workers. Post-Reagan, its much easier to loot a fortune out of a thriving business and leave the little guy to rot. Also, and like its been a week, but I'm fairly certain MM was sharing federal income tax charts, as he tends to do, so it wasn't actually an aggregate data, but a single data point that he was trying to use to make his point. Wall Street is definately an issue, and there are ways to go after that, but the big thing is that we need to raise business taxes so that companies pay their workers more and invest in tangible things. That aspect of the problem can, 100%, be attacked using taxes as a way to push society in a better direction.

                        Also, while it might be true that the lowest class receives more than it pays you're describing people living in literal poverty and the thing about the middle class just, I don't really want to tangle with that stuff since there's nothing supporting it, but its also a bit tangential. The one thing I'd be curious about is where you get this "we can't tax our way out of this" because the wealthy have a lot of think tanks and the like that pump out "research" about how ineffective the kinds of things we want to do are at affecting the rich :)
                        Raising business taxes won't result in higher wages - it'll do the opposite. If a business has to pay more in taxes, it will try to cut its largest expense - labor.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          I didn't say anything like that, and you know it. So from that I will conclude your goal is working up a fight with me. So when/If you want to have a reasoned, objective discussion in the future, I'll be glad to have one. Till then - find another target I guess.
                          That is what the antifa are DOING, Jim. They are trying to stop free speech. And you are trying to play the middle. You want to defend them because they hate Trump, yet you are reluctant to approve of their tactics (which is good) - my point is that their tactics make THEM the fascists they are claiming to be against! They are using force to stop free expression by others. There is no defending a group like that, no matter which side they are on. If they were a conservative group doing that I would be just against them, as I am against the white supremacists. I see the neo-nazis and the antifa as two sides of the same coin of hate.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            That is what the antifa are DOING, Jim. They are trying to stop free speech. And you are trying to play the middle. You want to defend them because they hate Trump, yet you are reluctant to approve of their tactics (which is good) - my point is that their tactics make THEM the fascists they are claiming to be against! They are using force to stop free expression by others. There is no defending a group like that, no matter which side they are on. If they were a conservative group doing that I would be just against them, as I am against the white supremacists. I see the neo-nazis and the antifa as two sides of the same coin of hate.
                            No reason for me to get in the middle of this one but "fascist" doesn't mean "violently repressive". It's an actual ideology with relatively discrete definitions.

                            Neo-Nazis are fascist because they adhere to and promote the fascist ideology, not because some of them are violent.

                            Antifa, by its nature, is anti-fascist because it defines itself in opposition to fascist ideology. Calling it fascist is like saying the communist parties in 1930s Germany were fascist, too, because they often fought with the proto-Nazi fascists (and later the actual Nazi fascists).

                            --Sam
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              No reason for me to get in the middle of this one but "fascist" doesn't mean "violently repressive". It's an actual ideology with relatively discrete definitions.

                              Neo-Nazis are fascist because they adhere to and promote the fascist ideology, not because some of them are violent.

                              Antifa, by its nature, is anti-fascist because it defines itself in opposition to fascist ideology. Calling it fascist is like saying the communist parties in 1930s Germany were fascist, too, because they often fought with the proto-Nazi fascists (and later the actual Nazi fascists).

                              --Sam
                              Puhleeze, Sam. The colloquial use today is slightly different. It means authoritarianism and forcing everyone to comply. More succinctly it means anyone the far left doesn't like. But by the historical definition of Fascism, not even the White Supremacists that the Antifa claim to be against are Fascists.

                              Historical Fascism was an actual political party and ideology. It involved an authoritarian and totalitarian dictator running a country. A police state.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Puhleeze, Sam. The colloquial use today is slightly different. It means authoritarianism and forcing everyone to comply. More succinctly it means anyone the far left doesn't like. But by the historical definition of Fascism, not even the White Supremacists that the Antifa claim to be against are Fascists.

                                Historical Fascism was an actual political party and ideology. It involved an authoritarian and totalitarian dictator running a country. A police state.
                                Dictatorial as in a one-party state, which might sound uncomfortably familiar to people here who depict Democratic majorities as somehow illegitimate and seek to defend voter disenfranchisement, suppression, and gerrymandering as legitimate means to minority rule.

                                White supremacists are often, but not always, aligned with fascism because fascism promises exactly this kind of state: one where a favored minority exercises authoritarian power over a disempowered majority.

                                But if people are using the term wrong, they're using it wrong. It's not a "colloquialism" to define as "fascist" groups that are distinctly and definitionally anti-fascist. There's a reason that there's no Antifa figurehead, whereas there's almost always a fascist one.

                                --Sam
                                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                7 responses
                                52 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                42 responses
                                234 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                24 responses
                                104 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Ronson
                                by Ronson
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                190 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                73 responses
                                315 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X