Originally posted by mikewhitney
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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'Elite' evangelicals
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostWord usage like that can make me suspicious as well. None the less I don't think its fair to be suspicious of anyone who doesn't walk lockstep with Trump supporters. Its a weird litmus test of Christianity.
If it isn't clear on my view of the CT editorial, I just think it was a failure to have any value. He has not resolved the dispute of facts held between the anti-Trumpers and the pro-America people. So Galli only appealed along partisan lines. It appears that this error has become a concern for CT. I don't know if Galli should step down -- but the editorial did appear to be a lapse of judgment if CT is interested in the broad Christian audience.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI've read material by Galli in the past though I would not say that I follow him closely by any means. My general impression was that he is a fairly conservative Christian. Before now the incident that popped up most on my radar was when he strongly pushed back against Rob Bell's universalism. The personal attacks like "bird brained" in his thread are unbecoming of descriptions against fellow Christians with whom we disagree though I know saying so will go nowhere here.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by demi-conservative View PostGood riddance.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Here is an interesting opinion piece, by an editor of the magazine First Things. https://nypost.com/2019/12/20/elite-...-religionists/
Which set of elites represent evangelical thought? Jerry Falwell, jr, or Mark Galli?
Does theology play a role in which set of elites rise to influence? The piece lists things which brought the populist elites to prominence: media, entrepreneurialism, politics.
One key point Galli has raised is the differences in the arguments used during the Clinton years and today. But the current arguments did not car weight during the Romney campaign. Maybe a key comparison would be Romney's campaign and Trump's.
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostHere is an interesting opinion piece, by an editor of the magazine First Things. https://nypost.com/2019/12/20/elite-...-religionists/
Which set of elites represent evangelical thought? Jerry Falwell, jr, or Mark Galli?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI don't follow any man.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostHere is an interesting opinion piece, by an editor of the magazine First Things. https://nypost.com/2019/12/20/elite-...-religionists/
Which set of elites represent evangelical thought? Jerry Falwell, jr, or Mark Galli?
Does theology play a role in which set of elites rise to influence? The piece lists things which brought the populist elites to prominence: media, entrepreneurialism, politics.
One key point Galli has raised is the differences in the arguments used during the Clinton years and today. But the current arguments did not car weight during the Romney campaign. Maybe a key comparison would be Romney's campaign and Trump's.
One complaint from the anti-Trump Evangelicals is that voting for and defending Trump harms our "witness." But I don't recall such concerns when Mitt ran. In fact, some of the current anti-Trump voices were (if I'm understanding their old comments properly) more concerned with helping Mitt tailor his messaging to better appeal to those concerned with Christian orthodoxy. I don't understand this. Clearly Mitt, at least by all appearances, has always been much more "moral" and ethical than Trump. But if he's a Mormon, then he's a member of a pseudo-Christian cult, and therefore an infidel. If people are concerned about the "bad witness" of defending Trump, why were they not concerned that support for Mitt could lead clueless infidels into thinking Mormons are Christians, and cause some to put "faith" in Mormonism's fake Jesus?Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by simplicio View Post?
Does theology play a role in which set of elites rise to influence?
The educated elite are largely out of touch with the base, as Galli himself admitted. The split will only grow, and soon these elite will lose influence.
Christian leaders that are highly educated get respect and deference, but they're throwing this away with their barely hidden elitism.Last edited by demi-conservative; 12-23-2019, 09:02 PM.Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostThat was an interesting article. And it probably goes a long way toward explaining why people I otherwise respect, such as Roger Olsen and Ben Witherington III, are anti-Trump. Witherington especially disappointed me by using his Patheos blog to affirm the CT editorial, and then going even further in his interactions in the Comments by pretty much saying that no real Christian could vote for Trump.
I don't think I'm quite understanding what you're saying here, so I'll use it as a springboard for my own thoughts:
One complaint from the anti-Trump Evangelicals is that voting for and defending Trump harms our "witness." But I don't recall such concerns when Mitt ran. In fact, some of the current anti-Trump voices were (if I'm understanding their old comments properly) more concerned with helping Mitt tailor his messaging to better appeal to those concerned with Christian orthodoxy. I don't understand this. Clearly Mitt, at least by all appearances, has always been much more "moral" and ethical than Trump. But if he's a Mormon, then he's a member of a pseudo-Christian cult, and therefore an infidel. If people are concerned about the "bad witness" of defending Trump, why were they not concerned that support for Mitt could lead clueless infidels into thinking Mormons are Christians, and cause some to put "faith" in Mormonism's fake Jesus?
Character counts was a rallying cry for a previous generation of Christians. And it was not just a soundbite, but was backed by supporting ideas. It was a cohesive and consistent argument built on the Christian faith.
An adequate Christian witness does not allow support for Romney, a Mormon, but does for Trump? Does anyone really think Romney would have alienated a key demographic of his support by offering liberal or pro choice names for openings on the bench?
Romney fumbled his run for president by forgetting the lessons learned from recent administrations, a coherent and conscious effort to court Christians. He took the evangelical coalition's support (which includes Catholics) for granted.
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Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post"By contrast, evangelical leaders who have come up through established institutions tend to acquire the training and tastes of the wider American elite. They often disdain the religious and political populism of the base."
The educated elite are largely out of touch with the base, as Galli himself admitted. The split will only grow, and soon these elite will lose influence.
Christian leaders that are highly educated get respect and deference, but they're throwing this away with their barely hidden elitism.
An important policy distinction between Galli's bunch of elites and the base is their position on borders, immigration and 'refugees'.Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.
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Evidence:
While Congress voted on an Obamacare fix Friday afternoon, a panel of evangelical thinkers discussed immigration reform at The Heritage Foundation. The panelists complained that the media has propped up various evangelical leaders who claim to speak for millions of Christians, but that not all believers necessarily agree with these leaders’ views on immigration reform.
Mark Tooley, president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, said years ago denomination heads began speaking to their denominations instead of for them, and immigration reform is another example of the disconnect. He said evangelical leaders should remember that “in a fallen world, good intentions and lofty principles are not sufficient.”
https://www.theaquilareport.com/evan...ration-reform/Moore responded Monday to Trump’s attack by tweeting a passage from the Old Testament, where God’s prophet Elijah stands up to the enemy king Ahab whose people followed false gods. “You have abandoned the Lord’s commands and have followed the Baals,” Elijah says in the Bible, before the God of Israel rains down fire to show his power.
Trump supporters jumped in to attack Moore on social media for his leadership of the Evangelical Immigration Table, a platform for immigration reform signed by hundreds of influential evangelical leaders that includes a path to citizenship or legal status for those who qualify. Moore is a leader of the group along with presidents of the National Association of Evangelicals, Council for Christian Colleges & Universities, and evangelical humanitarian relief organizations.
https://time.com/4323009/donald-trum...-christianity/
It is obvious in hindsight. There has been a big conflict on immigration, and some are extremely upset that the other side has 'won' by supporting a winning candidate that agrees with them.Last edited by demi-conservative; 12-24-2019, 03:34 AM.Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostSo support of Romney could lead those not immersed in the faith, familiar with biblical principles, might interpret that support as an embrace of Romneys religious ideas? But one common argument made is that the support of the candidate is not an endorsement of the theology. And the dire warning that "a vote for Romney is a vote for the devil" was not enough to clue in those unchurched!
not an endorsement of the candidate's theology -- or morality, IMO. ISTM it is the judgmental anti-Trumpers who are making the "vote for = agree with completely" argument.
Character counts was a rallying cry for a previous generation of Christians. And it was not just a soundbite, but was backed by supporting ideas. It was a cohesive and consistent argument built on the Christian faith.
An adequate Christian witness does not allow support for Romney, a Mormon, but does for Trump?
Does anyone really think Romney would have alienated a key demographic of his support by offering liberal or pro choice names for openings on the bench?
Romney fumbled his run for president by forgetting the lessons learned from recent administrations, a coherent and conscious effort to court Christians. He took the evangelical coalition's support (which includes Catholics) for granted.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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