Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Anti-Trump Christians, Would You Prefer a President Who Supports Secular Social Agend

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Anti-Trump Christians, Would You Prefer a President Who Supports Secular Social Agend

    Anti-Trump Christians, Would You Prefer a President Who Supports Secular Social Agenda?

    I've always enjoyed Cal Thomas...

    The battle between church and state is as old as church and state, as is the conflict within religious circles over who supposedly speaks for God.

    The latest dustup occurred after the departing editor of Christianity Today magazine, Mark Galli, wrote an editorial in which he said President Trump is an immoral man and his impeachment by the House is cause for his immediate removal from office.

    This ignited a firestorm. Major media, which regularly ignore the opinions of religious publications, overnight transported Galli from relative obscurity to national prominence. Anti-Trump evangelicals called his comments a breath of fresh air. More like stale political air.

    During the debate over slavery in America, pro- and anti-slavery clergy selectively quoted Scripture to President Abraham Lincoln to justify their positions. Lincoln responded to the contradictory arguments of North and South in his second inaugural address: "Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other."

    Scripture, which conservative evangelicals claim is inerrant and infallible, contains stories of leaders with severe moral flaws, whom God used for His own purposes. Those who want Trump removed from office and can't wait until the next election for voters to decide, ignore one of the most profound verses about temporal power: "Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God." (Romans 13:1 NLT)

    If "everyone" and "all" doesn't mean everyone and all, including people for whom some evangelicals did not vote, pray tell what does it mean?

    Galli and other anti-Trumpers don't tell us their presidential preferences. One hopes it isn't any of those on the far left who have an agenda that evangelicals would consider an abomination. President Trump is right when he says he has done more to advance evangelical concerns than any other president.

    What the anti-Trump forces are uncomfortable with are the resumes of people who voted for and still support the president. They are not part of the elites. They didn't go to the "right" universities where truth is subjective, if it exists at all. They don't read The New York Times, or The Washington Post, or watch CNN and MSNBC. They watch Fox News and listen to Rush Limbaugh. They are tired of being treated like second-class citizens who don't deserve to have their principles upheld by a government to which they pay taxes.

    I recently spoke about the Galli editorial with a former Democratic member of Congress, who is a Christian. He said one of the problems with uncritical evangelical support for the president is that it dilutes their "witness" to non-believers, who think faith in God means having to join the Republican Party and support the president.

    What would their position have been had Hillary Clinton, a liberal Methodist, been elected president? Do they believe they would have been in a better position to share their faith?

    People have always used such excuses for not pursuing faith, but my friend does have a point. When non-churchgoers (who are increasing in numbers, especially among the young) see people they think should be preaching about another kingdom and another King selectively ignore a leader's moral failings, they justify their unbelief.

    On the other hand, anti-Trump Christians must answer this question: Would they be happier if a liberal Democrat were president, one who supports abortion and the rest of the secular-progressive social agenda and sees the Constitution as a "living document" to be interpreted by individual judges? That was the choice in 2016.

    The same choice is likely in November. Such a "preferred" Democrat might be morally upright and even attend church every Sunday.

    Apparently, they forget we have already had such a president. His name is Jimmy Carter.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Anti-Trump Christians, Would You Prefer a President Who Supports Secular Social Agenda?

    I've always enjoyed Cal Thomas...

    The battle between church and state is as old as church and state, as is the conflict within religious circles over who supposedly speaks for God.

    The latest dustup occurred after the departing editor of Christianity Today magazine, Mark Galli, wrote an editorial in which he said President Trump is an immoral man and his impeachment by the House is cause for his immediate removal from office.

    This ignited a firestorm. Major media, which regularly ignore the opinions of religious publications, overnight transported Galli from relative obscurity to national prominence. Anti-Trump evangelicals called his comments a breath of fresh air. More like stale political air.

    During the debate over slavery in America, pro- and anti-slavery clergy selectively quoted Scripture to President Abraham Lincoln to justify their positions. Lincoln responded to the contradictory arguments of North and South in his second inaugural address: "Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other."

    Scripture, which conservative evangelicals claim is inerrant and infallible, contains stories of leaders with severe moral flaws, whom God used for His own purposes. Those who want Trump removed from office and can't wait until the next election for voters to decide, ignore one of the most profound verses about temporal power: "Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God." (Romans 13:1 NLT)

    If "everyone" and "all" doesn't mean everyone and all, including people for whom some evangelicals did not vote, pray tell what does it mean?

    Galli and other anti-Trumpers don't tell us their presidential preferences. One hopes it isn't any of those on the far left who have an agenda that evangelicals would consider an abomination. President Trump is right when he says he has done more to advance evangelical concerns than any other president.

    What the anti-Trump forces are uncomfortable with are the resumes of people who voted for and still support the president. They are not part of the elites. They didn't go to the "right" universities where truth is subjective, if it exists at all. They don't read The New York Times, or The Washington Post, or watch CNN and MSNBC. They watch Fox News and listen to Rush Limbaugh. They are tired of being treated like second-class citizens who don't deserve to have their principles upheld by a government to which they pay taxes.

    I recently spoke about the Galli editorial with a former Democratic member of Congress, who is a Christian. He said one of the problems with uncritical evangelical support for the president is that it dilutes their "witness" to non-believers, who think faith in God means having to join the Republican Party and support the president.

    What would their position have been had Hillary Clinton, a liberal Methodist, been elected president? Do they believe they would have been in a better position to share their faith?

    People have always used such excuses for not pursuing faith, but my friend does have a point. When non-churchgoers (who are increasing in numbers, especially among the young) see people they think should be preaching about another kingdom and another King selectively ignore a leader's moral failings, they justify their unbelief.

    On the other hand, anti-Trump Christians must answer this question: Would they be happier if a liberal Democrat were president, one who supports abortion and the rest of the secular-progressive social agenda and sees the Constitution as a "living document" to be interpreted by individual judges? That was the choice in 2016.

    The same choice is likely in November. Such a "preferred" Democrat might be morally upright and even attend church every Sunday.

    Apparently, they forget we have already had such a president. His name is Jimmy Carter.
    The fact a president that abuses the power of office and threatens to render ineffective the constitutional safeguards against tyranny should be removed from office could only be overshadowed by a replacement known to present an even greater danger to the republic itself. Trumps replacement would be Pence.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      The fact a president that abuses the power of office and threatens to render ineffective the constitutional safeguards against tyranny should be removed from office could only be overshadowed by a replacement known to present an even greater danger to the republic itself.
      And there is a process in place to deal with that without Christians going to war with each other declaring anti-anti-Trump Christians "fake Christians".

      Trumps replacement would be Pence.
      ONLY if the Senate convicts and removes, Horace the bull is more likely to grow teats and get milk.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        And there is a process in place to deal with that without Christians going to war with each other declaring anti-anti-Trump Christians "fake Christians".
        What are you interpreting as Christian's calling other Christian's 'fake christians'? Certainly not the the editorial itself. I certainly have not issued such an accusation. Though I gave been called apostate and hypocrite amongst other appellations by people you regularly amen and support.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          What are you interpreting as Christian's calling other Christian's 'fake christians'?
          One of your online atheist buddies made that comment.

          Certainly not the the editorial itself. I certainly have not issued such an accusation.
          I'm beginning to think you don't really read others' comments.

          Though I gave been called apostate and hypocrite amongst other appellations by people you regularly amen and support.
          Yeah, like I amen them BECAUSE they call you a hypocrite and .... I've never seen anybody call you apostate.... but, sheeesh, Jim, get over this nutty notion that "amening somebody's post is tacit approval of EVERYTHING they say".
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            One of your online atheist buddies made that comment.



            I'm beginning to think you don't really read others' comments.



            Yeah, like I amen them BECAUSE they call you a hypocrite and .... I've never seen anybody call you apostate.... but, sheeesh, Jim, get over this nutty notion that "amening somebody's post is tacit approval of EVERYTHING they say".
            Uh ... I've been called a fake Christian numerous times by a number of people on this board. Jim has interjected several times and I think I recall you disagreeing with 'em when I bring it up but, mainly, no: it's a charge that has been leveled at Christians by Christians with no major pushback or reprisal. Years ago, I had people here demanding that I change my religious tag.

            And that was for being LGBTQ-affirming, not even supporting policies and people that separate children from their parents with no intent for reunification or lock refugees and asylum seekers out, forcing them to live on the streets of Mexican border towns.

            --Sam
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              One of your online atheist buddies made that comment.
              I see. So how does an atheist call pro trump Christian's fake Christian's justify saying Christian's are calling pro-trump Christian's fake christians?


              I'm beginning to think you don't really read others' comments.
              Exactly how do you derive that conclusion from my statement:

              Originally posted by oxmixmudd
              Certainly not the the editorial itself. I certainly have not issued such an accusation.


              ____


              Yeah, like I amen them BECAUSE they call you a hypocrite and .... I've never seen anybody call you apostate.... but, sheeesh, Jim, get over this nutty notion that "amening somebody's post is tacit approval of EVERYTHING they say".
              I did not imply you merely amened them.

              The implication is that it is inconsistent for you to proclaim that calling Trump supporting Christians 'fake Christian'' is bad when you regularly support Christians that tear Trump opposing Christian's down every chance they get. I have never once seen you ever remark their comments were unjustified or went too far. I have seen you explicitly agree with them in their attacks. Even egg them on as it were

              Not only that, you regularly participate in labeling Christians you disagree with you on issues related to Trump as mentally unstable.
              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 12-27-2019, 10:48 AM.
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                The fact a president that abuses the power of office and threatens to render ineffective the constitutional safeguards against tyranny should be removed from office could only be overshadowed by a replacement known to present an even greater danger to the republic itself. Trumps replacement would be Pence.
                So Trump is a tyrant, but you can speak against him without any fear of reprisal against you, whatsoever. I sure hope that made more sense in your head, than saying it out loud.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  So Trump is a tyrant, but you can speak against him without any fear of reprisal against you, whatsoever. I sure hope that made more sense in your head, than saying it out loud.
                  Read more carefully pix. I said he is tearing down the constitutional safeguards against tyranny. That doesnt mean he is a tyrant. What it means is that the actions he has taken to preserve himself will make it easier for tyranny to find a place here.
                  Last edited by oxmixmudd; 12-27-2019, 11:17 AM.
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    Read more carefully pix. I said he is tearing down the constitutional safeguards against tyranny.
                    And yet....

                    Who is in jail or facing jail time, for being critical of Trump? Are you going to suffer, in any way, for being critical of the dear leader?
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      I see. So how does an atheist call pro trump Christian's fake Christian's justify saying Christian's are calling pro-trump Christian's fake christians?
                      can you please try that one again?

                      I did not imply you merely amened them.
                      I dare be their friends, eh? Somehow, that means I agree with all they do and say?

                      The implication is that it is inconsistent for you to proclaim that calling Trump supporting Christians 'fake Christian'' is bad when you regularly support Christians that tear Trump opposing Christian's down every chance they get. I have never once seen you ever remark their comments were unjustified or went too far. I have seen you explicitly agree with them in their attacks. Even egg them on as it were
                      How bout trying to type more cogent statements, OK? I have never EVER called you a fake Christian, nor would I ever. But your 'friends' do that.

                      So, lemme get this straight (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) ----- the reason you don't oppose your buddies for calling......

                      heck, this is a waste of my time. I give up, Ox -- you're right.

                      Not only that, you regularly participate in labeling Christians you disagree with you on issues related to Trump as mentally unstable.
                      Sure. I'd ask for examples, but.... again, I think I'm wasting my time.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        And yet....

                        Who is in jail or facing jail time, for being critical of Trump? Are you going to suffer, in any way, for being critical of the dear leader?
                        Unfortunately pix you are making leaps in the discussion content not warranted by the comments I've made, so unless you can reign it back in I'll have to move on to something else.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          Unfortunately pix you are making leaps in the discussion content not warranted by the comments I've made, so unless you can reign it back in I'll have to move on to something else.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            can you please try that one again?
                            Nope. You can figure it out if you want to.



                            I dare be their friends, eh? Somehow, that means I agree with all they do and say?
                            Nope, wrong again. I'm talking about your eternal silence when they act out and the times you post in agreement with them and encourage them in their comments as they make the same sorts of assessments of anti Trump Christian's that you are complaining about when aimed at pro-Trump Christians.


                            How bout trying to type more cogent statements, OK? I have never EVER called you a fake Christian, nor would I ever.
                            I didn't say you did. But I said your 'friends' say similar things, and you have no problem encouraging them in it.

                            But your 'friends' do that.
                            Likewise yours.


                            So, lemme get this straight (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) ----- the reason you don't oppose your buddies for calling......

                            heck, this is a waste of my time. I give up, Ox -- you're right.



                            Sure. I'd ask for examples, but.... again, I think I'm wasting my time.
                            Cp. You can understand if you want to. It's not that hard.
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              The fact a president that abuses the power of office and threatens to render ineffective the constitutional safeguards against tyranny should be removed from office could only be overshadowed by a replacement known to present an even greater danger to the republic itself. Trumps replacement would be Pence.
                              Well that isn't going to happen Jim so who will you vote for in 2020?
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Juvenal, Today, 02:50 PM
                              0 responses
                              5 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Juvenal
                              by Juvenal
                               
                              Started by RumTumTugger, Today, 02:30 PM
                              0 responses
                              9 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post RumTumTugger  
                              Started by CivilDiscourse, Today, 12:07 PM
                              2 responses
                              26 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post tabibito  
                              Started by Cow Poke, Yesterday, 03:46 PM
                              19 responses
                              206 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Sparko
                              by Sparko
                               
                              Started by Ronson, Yesterday, 01:52 PM
                              3 responses
                              40 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Working...
                              X