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Thread: Fulfilled prophecy - A famine of the word of the Lord

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Fulfilled prophecy - A famine of the word of the Lord

    “The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign LORD,
    “when I will send a famine through the land—
    not a famine of food or a thirst for water,
    but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
    People will stagger from sea to sea
    and wander from north to east,
    searching for the word of the LORD,
    but they will not find it. (Amos 8:11–12)

    Amos here prophesies that hearing the words of the Lord will cease, there will be a famine of the word of the Lord. And this was true for 400 years, especially if, as protestants do, you exclude the Apocrypha from the canon.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    “The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign LORD,
    “when I will send a famine through the land—
    not a famine of food or a thirst for water,
    but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
    People will stagger from sea to sea
    and wander from north to east,
    searching for the word of the LORD,
    but they will not find it. (Amos 8:11–12)

    Amos here prophesies that hearing the words of the Lord will cease, there will be a famine of the word of the Lord. And this was true for 400 years, especially if, as protestants do, you exclude the Apocrypha from the canon.
    "... especially if ..."?

    It's not remotely true if you don't exclude the Apocrypha, since even taking the most extreme dates possible places Sirach as being written 340 years after Malachi.

    There's also the issue that Dory has changed what Amos wrote from "a famine of hearing the words of the Lord" to just "a famine of the words of the Lord", which doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. And as usual Dory has ignored the accompanying context which lists other events such as the land rising and falling like the river Nile, or the sun descending at noon, none of which happened during the supposed period of fulfilment.

    But the biggest problem is that the supposed fulfilment is the ~400 years between Malachi and either Sirach or the Paulian epistles, which completely ignores the ~1900 years since Revelation. Either the last 1900 years are a better fulfilment of the prophecy than the period given, or later works (The Quran? The BoM?) are scripture, or the prophecy doesn't mean a lack of new canonical scripture.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

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  3. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  4. #3
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    It's not remotely true if you don't exclude the Apocrypha, since even taking the most extreme dates possible places Sirach as being written 340 years after Malachi.
    Well, 300 years is a long time, long enough to call it a famine.

    There's also the issue that Dory has changed what Amos wrote from "a famine of hearing the words of the Lord" to just "a famine of the words of the Lord", which doesn't necessarily mean the same thing.
    This is silly, the famine of hearing the words of the Lord is because they will search for the word of the Lord and not find it (v. 12).

    And as usual Dory has ignored the accompanying context which lists other events such as the land rising and falling like the river Nile, or the sun descending at noon, none of which happened during the supposed period of fulfilment.
    But "the days are coming" starts a new section, and a new prophecy.

    But the biggest problem is that the supposed fulfilment is the ~400 years between Malachi and either Sirach or the Paulian epistles, which completely ignores the ~1900 years since Revelation. Either the last 1900 years are a better fulfilment of the prophecy than the period given, or later works (The Quran? The BoM?) are scripture, or the prophecy doesn't mean a lack of new canonical scripture.
    I don't think the prophecy means a lack of new canonical scripture, it means the lack of prophecy, primarily, a lack of those who speak for God. And again, 300 years is enough to call it a famine, and a long gap does not invalidate this.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    It's not remotely true if you don't exclude the Apocrypha, since even taking the most extreme dates possible places Sirach as being written 340 years after Malachi.
    Well, 300 years is a long time, long enough to call it a famine.
    But clearly not long enough to call it 400 years. That Dory does not retract obviously false claims is an excellent reason to reject anything else he says.
    This is silly, the famine of hearing the words of the Lord is because they will search for the word of the Lord and not find it (v. 12).
    While Dory might reasonably claim that no new scripture or prophecy appeared during those 340 years, it's obviously not the case that people could not find previous scripture prophesy - because if they couldn't, we wouldn't be able to either.
    But "the days are coming" starts a new section, and a new prophecy.
    So the previous prophecy failed.
    But the biggest problem is that the supposed fulfilment is the ~400 years between Malachi and either Sirach or the Paulian epistles, which completely ignores the ~1900 years since Revelation. Either the last 1900 years are a better fulfilment of the prophecy than the period given, or later works (The Quran? The BoM?) are scripture, or the prophecy doesn't mean a lack of new canonical scripture.
    I don't think the prophecy means a lack of new canonical scripture, it means the lack of prophecy, primarily, a lack of those who speak for God.
    Then, since Dory hasn't named any prophets from the last 1900 years, they are a better fulfilment of the prophecy than the period he chose.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.

  6. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  7. #5
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    “The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign LORD,
    “when I will send a famine through the land—
    not a famine of food or a thirst for water,
    but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
    People will stagger from sea to sea
    and wander from north to east,
    searching for the word of the LORD,
    but they will not find it. (Amos 8:11–12)

    Amos here prophesies that hearing the words of the Lord will cease, there will be a famine of the word of the Lord. And this was true for 400 years, especially if, as protestants do, you exclude the Apocrypha from the canon.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The problem is this prophesy is far too vague and subjective, because many very natural periods in the cycle of history to be used to predict the how and when the prophesy applies.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    But clearly not long enough to call it 400 years. That Dory does not retract obviously false claims is an excellent reason to reject anything else he says.
    Well, the claim is that Malachi was written about 430 B.C., so yes, there's room for 400 years.

    While Dory might reasonably claim that no new scripture or prophecy appeared during those 340 years, it's obviously not the case that people could not find previous scripture prophesy - because if they couldn't, we wouldn't be able to either.
    Though the prophecy is about new prophecy appearing, searching for the word of the Lord and not finding it refers to fresh revelation.

    So the previous prophecy failed.
    Not at all, there was a long period without prophecy.

    Then, since Dory hasn't named any prophets from the last 1900 years, they are a better fulfilment of the prophecy than the period he chose.
    But there has been New Testament prophecy (re Acts 11:27, 1 Cor. 14:3).

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The problem is this prophesy is far too vague and subjective, because many very natural periods in the cycle of history to be used to predict the how and when the prophesy applies.
    But it's not vague, and it was fulfilled by a long period without prophecy. Certainly it's not said when this will occur, but it did happen.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But it's not vague, and it was fulfilled by a long period without prophecy. Certainly it's not said when this will occur, but it did happen.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Not 400 years.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Not 400 years.
    Well if Malachi was written about 430 B.C., then that's about 400 years.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  12. #10
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well if Malachi was written about 430 B.C., then that's about 400 years.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The text of Malachi is not evidence for a 400 years famine. Again there is not any archaeological evidence for a 400 year famine. There is archaeological and geologic evidence for periods of famines all over the world including Egypt and the Middle East most commonly due to cycles of drought
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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