First they ban plastic, now paper

[Ronson]

I don't like these laws either Sparko, mostly because they're what we in Denmark call 'symbolic politics', its something that shows that "stuff is being done" without actually doing much.

Weren't you the one asking for a definition of "virtue signaling"? I think you just defined it.

[Leonhard]

Weren't you the one asking for a definition of "virtue signaling"? I think you just defined it.

The reason I asked was that I saw being used for all sort of stuff, including things that were doing a difference.

[simplicio]

First they ban plastic and replace it with paper which as I have said causes way more pollution than plastic (research paper mills) and now they are banning the paper they were promoting. It's ridiculous. They should never have banned plastic to begin with. California is full of touch-feely types who feel better about themselves by creating "causes" that in actuality do nothing, while ignoring actual problems, like the aforementioned poop in the streets and homelessness everywhere. But hey, they have banned paper and plastic. Yay!

I thought the OP referenced a voluntary program.

[Sparko]

Ban toilet paper next?

They appear to have already done that in San Francisco. And toilets.

[Sparko]

I thought the OP referenced a voluntary program.

Right now it is. But that's how the straw ban started too.

[simplicio]

Right now it is. But that's how the straw ban started too.

The camel's nose under the edge of the tent argument?

They can take my drinking straw when they pry it from my cold dead fingers! Somehow I doubt that will be a great rallying cry. A drink straw is hardly a fundamental right.

If we look at it from a strictly utilitarian view, do the advantages of a ban outweigh the disadvantages?

[One Bad Pig]

The camel's nose under the edge of the tent argument?

They can take my drinking straw when they pry it from my cold dead fingers! Somehow I doubt that will be a great rallying cry. A drink straw is hardly a fundamental right.

If we look at it from a strictly utilitarian view, do the advantages of a ban outweigh the disadvantages?

Given that a ban would be required to implement the change, the answer is obviously no. People will do what is most advantageous for them unless forced to do something different.

[Sparko]

The camel's nose under the edge of the tent argument?

They can take my drinking straw when they pry it from my cold dead fingers! Somehow I doubt that will be a great rallying cry. A drink straw is hardly a fundamental right.

If we look at it from a strictly utilitarian view, do the advantages of a ban outweigh the disadvantages?

Sigh.

smh.

[simplicio]

Sigh.

smh.

I must be mistaken, I thought you were making the "camel's nose under the tent" argument, where a small act that is allowed will lead to much more serious and wide spread establishment of it. In this case that a small voluntary restriction on drinking straws would lead to mandatory restrictions on straws.

I wonder what motivates people to want to reduce the amount of straws used.

[oxmixmudd]

I must be mistaken, I thought you were making the "camel's nose under the tent" argument, where a small act that is allowed will lead to much more serious and wide spread establishment of it. In this case that a small voluntary restriction on drinking straws would lead to mandatory restrictions on straws.

I wonder what motivates people to want to reduce the amount of straws used.

For plastic straws its the fact that plastic doesnt decay in any realistic timeframe and so they get into the environment and never go away. Plastic in the oceans is a danger to sea life. Plastic in landfills or tossed carelessly never go away. Single use items like straws, plastic utensils etc dont recycle and thus have no potential to have any other destiny than a landfill, surface trash, or body of water

most recying facilities cant handle styrofoam either, so single use styrofoam coffee cups have similar impacts on the environment.

[shunyadragon]

I guess you have to start carrying your own to-go bags and coffee cups in San Francisco.

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Forget the plastic straws. California cafes are disposing of, well, disposable cups

A new cafe culture is brewing in the San Francisco area, where a growing number of coffee houses are banishing paper to-go cups and replacing them with everything from glass jars https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ps/2744534001/
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Yeah because giving people their coffee in glass jars to carry around the streets is such a great idea.

Contemporary thermal containers are, of course, preferable. Most definitely a step in the right direction.

[Teallaura]

First they ban plastic and replace it with paper which as I have said causes way more pollution than plastic (research paper mills) and now they are banning the paper they were promoting. It's ridiculous. They should never have banned plastic to begin with. California is full of touch-feely types who feel better about themselves by creating "causes" that in actuality do nothing, while ignoring actual problems, like the aforementioned poop in the streets and homelessness everywhere. But hey, they have banned paper and plastic. Yay!

You forgot that they originally replaced paper with plastic to save the trees... which were already being farmed by then...

Environmentalists: saving the emvironment one destruction at a time...

[oxmixmudd]

You forgot that they originally replaced paper with plastic to save the trees... which were already being farmed by then...

Environmentalists: saving the emvironment one destruction at a time...

Not accurate Teal. There were moves to reduce paper use, and for good reasons. But the consequences of the use of disposable plastics and their environmental impact was also not well understood as it is now. And there was significant financial motivation to use the cheaper, stronger, plastic alternatives. But in light of what we know now we need to move away from disposables where possible, and use biodegradable products where we cant.

This is a real problem and sarcasm is an irresponsible reaction to it.

[Abigail]

Here in U.K. most places are using paper straws. I have seen stainless steel straws on sale plus mini bottle brushes to clean them but I doubt they will become popular. Lots of eco places are selling bamboo cups which are supposed to be environmentally friendly but are very pricy. They also seem to be porous and being the tea drinking nation we are I have seen some pretty horridly stained cups which are hard to clean without strong detergents or bleach.

[Teallaura]

Wasn't the UK where they had the first stainless steel straw related death? (Or was it Canada?).