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  • #16
    Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
    United Methodist Church is expected to split over gay marriage, fracturing the nation’s third-largest denomination
    Church leaders said Friday they had agreed to spin off a “traditionalist Methodist" denomination, while allowing the remaining portion of the United Methodist Church to permit same-sex marriage and LGBT clergy for the first time in its history.

    By Julie Zauzmer
    Jan. 3, 2020 at 11:02 a.m. EST
    The United Methodist Church is expected to split into more than one denomination in an attempt to bring to a close a years-long and contentious fight over same-sex marriage.

    The historic schism would divide the third-largest religious denomination in the United States.

    Civics, because it seems more political than religious. YMMV.

    So the non-LGBT affirming splitters will be the Trads, while the dividers will still be called United. "Splitters," because congregations will have to vote to split, else become affirming by default. At 3.6 percent, (compare to the SBC's 5.3 percent), pre-split, they're the largest mainline denomination, and will become the last of the mainliners to support same-sex marriage.
    After the separation, the agreement said, the remaining United Methodist Church would hold another conference with the purpose of removing the church’s bans on same-sex marriage and LGBT clergy.

    Previously, adding leverage to the split, draconian sanctions were set to go into effect for clergy performing these post-Obergefell-now-legal marriages, starting with a one-year-without-pay suspension for a first offense, and dismemberment for additional rites.

    And with that, the floor is open for cheers and jeers.
    Actually other denominations are splitting up over homosexuality and other issues like the science of evolution centering on the literal fundamentalist view of the Bible versu the adaptive interpretive view of liberal churches. In North Carolina rural churches regardless of the 'sign out front' have more in common as mostly conservative fundamentalist, and urban churches with liberal views, The exception are common independent mega churches which appeal to more to a fundamentalist belief in the Bible.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-03-2020, 08:30 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Actually other denominations are splitting up over homosexuality and other issues like the science of evolution centering on the literal fundamentalist view of the Bible versu the adaptive interpretive view of liberal churches. In North Carolina rural churches regardless of the 'sign out front' have more in common as mostly conservative fundamentalist, and urban churches with liberal views, The exception are common independent mega churches which appeal to more to a fundamentalist belief in the Bible.
      Which denomination is splitting up over evolution?

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #18
        What's the biggest Methodist group in the US after the United Methodist Church? While I assume any of the churches that are breaking away will get together and form a new group, I figure at least some will find some already-existing Methodist group and join that, and I'm wondering what possibilities there are. I tried to find out what other Methodist groups there are in the US, but other than the African Methodist Episcopal Church (which seems to itself be becoming increasingly ambivalent on the issue of same-sex marriage from what I can tell), they all seem extremely small.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
          What's the biggest Methodist group in the US after the United Methodist Church? While I assume any of the churches that are breaking away will get together and form a new group, I figure at least some will find some already-existing Methodist group and join that, and I'm wondering what possibilities there are. I tried to find out what other Methodist groups there are in the US, but other than the African Methodist Episcopal Church (which seems to itself be becoming increasingly ambivalent on the issue of same-sex marriage from what I can tell), they all seem extremely small.
          rls-banner.jpg
          The RLS surveys more than 35,000 Americans from all 50 states about their religious affiliations, beliefs and practices, and social and political views.

          The Pew Forum is my go-to source. The rest of the Methodists show up as a rounding error:
          Other Methodist (Mainline Trad.) 0.3%

          Comment


          • #20
            I cannot fault them for wishing to keep the Church together and avoid a split. But after a while a split becomes so deep and so prolonged that there is no other real option. Then a split is more honest, than pretending all is one.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Which denomination is splitting up over evolution?
              Incomplete representation of my post. The break up is over the more fundamentalist beliefs and more liberal non-literal beliefs. Homosexuality, abortion, birth control, and the belief in a literal interpretation of the Bible opposed to evolution are some of the issues involved in the growing schisms.

              The Lutheran Churches are divided over the literal interpretation of the Bible and evolution.

              LCMS Lutheran Churches:
              Source: https://christiannews.net/2019/07/30/lutheran-church-missouri-synod-approves-resolution-reaffirming-belief-in-literal-six-day-creation/



              Lutheran Church Missouri Synod Approves Resolution Reaffirming Belief in Literal Six-Day Creation

              TAMPA, Fla. — During the recent Convention of The Lutheran Church — Missouri Synod (LCMS), delegates approved a resolution reaffirming the synod’s belief in a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis, including that God created the heavens and earth in six days.

              The text of Resolution 5-09A reflects positions outlined in existing documents, such as its 1973 Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles, which declares, “We teach that God has created heaven and earth, and that in the manner and in the space of time recorded in the Holy Scriptures, especially Genesis 1 and 2, namely by His almighty creative word, and in six days.”

              “We reject every doctrine which denies or limits the work of creation as taught in Scripture. In our days, it is denied or limited by those who assert, ostensibly in deference to science, that the world came into existence through a process of evolution,” it continues. “Since no man was present when it pleased God to create the world, we must look for a reliable account of creation to God’s own record, found in God’s own book, the Bible.”

              Pastors and other church workers are encouraged to confess and uphold the position in their teaching.

              © Copyright Original Source



              Evangelical Lutheran Church of America is very liberal and has no problem with evolution.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Incomplete representation of my post. The break up is over the more fundamentalist beliefs and more liberal non-literal beliefs. Homosexuality, abortion, birth control, and the belief in a literal interpretation of the Bible opposed to evolution are some of the issues involved in the growing schisms.

                The Lutheran Churches are divided over the literal interpretation of the Bible and evolution.

                LCMS Lutheran Churches:
                Source: https://christiannews.net/2019/07/30/lutheran-church-missouri-synod-approves-resolution-reaffirming-belief-in-literal-six-day-creation/



                Lutheran Church Missouri Synod Approves Resolution Reaffirming Belief in Literal Six-Day Creation

                TAMPA, Fla. — During the recent Convention of The Lutheran Church — Missouri Synod (LCMS), delegates approved a resolution reaffirming the synod’s belief in a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis, including that God created the heavens and earth in six days.

                The text of Resolution 5-09A reflects positions outlined in existing documents, such as its 1973 Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles, which declares, “We teach that God has created heaven and earth, and that in the manner and in the space of time recorded in the Holy Scriptures, especially Genesis 1 and 2, namely by His almighty creative word, and in six days.”

                “We reject every doctrine which denies or limits the work of creation as taught in Scripture. In our days, it is denied or limited by those who assert, ostensibly in deference to science, that the world came into existence through a process of evolution,” it continues. “Since no man was present when it pleased God to create the world, we must look for a reliable account of creation to God’s own record, found in God’s own book, the Bible.”

                Pastors and other church workers are encouraged to confess and uphold the position in their teaching.

                © Copyright Original Source



                Evangelical Lutheran Church of America is very liberal and has no problem with evolution.
                IOW, no denominations are splitting up over evolution as you had claimed.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  IOW, no denominations are splitting up over evolution as you had claimed.
                  Yeah, Shuny is in his own little world. But, hey, the people there all know him.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    IOW, no denominations are splitting up over evolution as you had claimed.
                    That'd be a lot more compelling if it was what he claimed, and it wasn't in direct response to his denial.
                    ... splitting up over homosexuality and other issues like the science of evolution centering on the literal fundamentalist view of the Bible versu the adaptive interpretive view of liberal churches

                    followed by
                    Incomplete representation of my post.

                    and a reiteration of the list you didn't read the first time.

                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Yeah, Shuny is in his own little world. But, hey, the people there all know him.
                    And we know you, goober. Try reading what he actually said before you dogpile, preacher. It'll improve your looks. Unless you like looking yellow. That said, I dare ya, no, I double dare ya to step up to the mic next Sunday and declare you accept the theory of evolution, because the evidence that it's true is beyond compelling, and all truth is God's truth.

                    Then come on back and tell us how that worked out for ya, how it wasn't a divisive topic after all.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      IOW, no denominations are splitting up over evolution as you had claimed.
                      You are still misrepresenting my posts as usual. The separation is over the issue of the literal interpretation of the scriptures, which includes the interpretation of genesis, and the literal interpretation concerning the LGBT community. It is a fact as cited that the Lutherans are divided over the literal interpretation of scriptures and the Missouri Senate Lutherans have drawn the line in the sand and rejected evolution based on this and the other Lutheran Churches have not.


                      Actually the United Methodist Church has been divided by deacto for a long time over the conservative literal interpretation of scriptures. The barrier is the ownership of the churches involved. In the United Methodist Church the individual churches do not own their property. As in my region of the North Carolina. The urban United Methodist Churches are mostly liberal, and the rural Methodist Churches are conservative and believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, and ny defacto they are separate. This is actually true of many denominations in my experience.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-05-2020, 07:13 PM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        You are still misrepresenting my posts as usual. The separation is over the issue of the literal interpretation of the scriptures, which includes the interpretation of genesis, and the literal interpretation concerning the LGBT community. It is a fact as cited that the Lutherans are divided over the literal interpretation of scriptures and the Missouri Senate Lutherans have drawn the line in the sand and rejected evolution based on this and the other Lutheran Churches have not.
                        If your argument is that the split is due to how "literally" they take the Bible, with evolution being an example of such, that is not unreasonable--but rather than simply say that in response to rogue's post ("I wasn't saying they were breaking up because of evolution, but because of the differing theological underpinnings that lead to separate opinions on things like evolution"), you confusingly chose to double down on the statement by citing differences in evolution understanding between the LCMS and ELCA. The problem is that the ELCA didn't split from the LCMS--the ELCA was a merger of three different Lutheran groups. Now, to be fair, one of those groups did split from the LCMS, but that still seems like a stretch because that merged into the ELCA rather than being the ELCA. Even if one insists it does "count," I do not know if evolution was an actual factor--but perhaps more importantly this happened back in 1976 rather than in the present as your post suggested.

                        It's sort of like comparing the Anglican and Catholic positions on same-sex marriage and saying it's an example of denominations splitting up over it. They might differ in that in the present, but their actual splitting occurred for totally different reasons.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                          And we know you, goober.
                          A) Who's "we", Juvie?
                          2) Do you honestly believe anybody here takes you seriously.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                            If your argument is that the split is due to how "literally" they take the Bible, with evolution being an example of such, that is not unreasonable--but rather than simply say that in response to rogue's post ("I wasn't saying they were breaking up because of evolution, but because of the differing theological underpinnings that lead to separate opinions on things like evolution"), you confusingly chose to double down on the statement by citing differences in evolution understanding between the LCMS and ELCA. The problem is that the ELCA didn't split from the LCMS--the ELCA was a merger of three different Lutheran groups. Now, to be fair, one of those groups did split from the LCMS, but that still seems like a stretch because that merged into the ELCA rather than being the ELCA. Even if one insists it does "count," I do not know if evolution was an actual factor--but perhaps more importantly this happened back in 1976 rather than in the present as your post suggested.

                            It's sort of like comparing the Anglican and Catholic positions on same-sex marriage and saying it's an example of denominations splitting up over it. They might differ in that in the present, but their actual splitting occurred for totally different reasons.
                            I never claimed that evolution was the 'only' issue. That is rogue06's biased imagination. More importantly the release I referred to is the Resolution reafirming the belief in the Six Day Creation and specifically the rejection of evolution in 2019.

                            It is important to note that the original Lutheran Church Doctrines and Dogmas accepted only a scripture literally inspired by the Holy Ghost. Over the years the LCMS reaffirmed the original beliefs of the Lutheran Church repeatedly, others did not. The LCMS would not accept other Churches that did not hold to the original beliefs of the Lutheran Church, therefore the schism is reinforced based on this difference in belief..
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-05-2020, 09:35 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Its not so simple, on the one hand no denominations have split over the specific issue of evolution, on the other hand, many take literal interpretation and a Young earth to be a test of orthodoxy and a line between Christian and non Christian.

                              A while back there was an exchange between two Christian elites, Ken Ham and Norm Geisler. Geisler contended that a literal six day creation and a Young earth was not a test of orthodoxy, Ham contends that the truths of the Bible unravel if one takes Geisler's, old earth view. No six day creation, no resurrection (oversimplified, but it boils down to that).

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                A) Who's "we", Juvie?
                                2) Do you honestly believe anybody here takes you seriously.
                                Go ahead, prove you're too much of a coward to admit you were wrong, goober.

                                Comment

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