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Thread: Divided Methodists

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    Just by the way, while it's Christian-run, this is not a Christian site, and has received support over the years from folks of all faiths or none. Unlike a lot of Christian boards, this site let us heathens post.

    Standards change over time and with new ownership but this site was founded under free speech principles. All of the original owners and a lot of the rest of us came here after being banned from "The Other Location," a Christian site where the vitriol was allowed to flow freely, albeit only in one direction. Their patron saint and the owner's pastor was Bob Enyart.

    Try googling "nicer than God."

    The "Other" owner had a penchant for winning with the ban button. Two of the original owners here were "preterists," one sufficiently skilled at debate that she wasn't merely banned, but deleted. I personally was banned "for being a jerk" after replying to a churlish insult with a laconic but cutting riposte.

    That's what we left, and what this board was designed to prevent. So yeah, it's lightly moderated.
    I didn't know that about the history of Tweb, thanks.

    There is moderation, then there is the routines and rituals which form the community norms; the first is external, the second is not. Perhaps the two work in tandem.

  2. #62
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I didn't know that about the history of Tweb, thanks.

    There is moderation, then there is the routines and rituals which form the community norms; the first is external, the second is not. Perhaps the two work in tandem.
    Keep in mind TWeb is a resurrected site, having suffered an unsalvageable server crash some years ago that took most of the historical posts with it. The original site launched in 2002, or maybe 2003 ... (I'm not so good with dates). The original owners balanced the hard-hitting forums with community building, awarding "spam points" for posting the less serious threads.

    It was routine back then to be joking in one area with the guy or gal you were blasting in another. We coveted, or were jealous of, or lorded it up with the apple icons in our postbits earned for joining during the first year the forum was up. We had alumni of the month, and the year, contests ... Thirsty Possum, the forever 3rd grader, recalcitrant, and unreconstructed sock that Deb (the late Crow) and I shared, famously won one of those votes.

    I made aluminum! For a whole month! Yea!!

    I was never so proud of him.

  3. Amen mossrose, Teallaura amen'd this post.
  4. #63
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Thirsty ought to post more often.

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  5. Amen Teallaura, Juvenal amen'd this post.
  6. #64
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    Paul was both the first and the most successful church splitter, a braggart, a liar, and an opportunist repeatedly hoist by his own petard. The manky Scot, prior to his apostasy, once mentioned that a lot of folks credit Paul with his own religion, Paulianity.

    I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel — which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

    Clearly, folks were claiming new revelations from angels that ran contrary to the new revelations from angels bestowed on their founder. Color me less than astonished.

    Irony is a dish best served by the unwitting.
    Pfft. "Clearly, [unmitigated fantasy follows]." Color me less than astonished. The context for that is rather clear, Jerk; Paul is declaiming against Judaizers here. Perhaps you might pay more attention to context than to your favorite skeptical contrivance du jour.
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  7. Amen mossrose, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  8. #65
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    If I understand you right, Paul was not supposed to protect the followers of Christ from wolves seeking to destroy the Christian movment.
    If you understood me rightly, you'd understand I consider Paul to be the wolf archetype. There are any number of uncomfortable incidents lending support. Most scholars consider his reported admonition of Peter a face-saving fabulism. He brags about his lack of interaction with Jesus' principal disciples, yet later attempts to buy his way into the Jerusalem adherents' good graces ... and was spectacularly less than successful.

    Your comment on Galatians is based on a misunderstanding of what was happening. This is forgivable at this point in time since most people have not understood the context correctly.
    There are multiple possible interpretations, some of which are more consistent with preserving Paul's image than the available evidence. I ask myself why he felt the need to rail against visions from angels. I ask myself whether the claimed intervention on the road to Damascus is consistent with Christian theology, or even with itself in its second telling. I don't claim my answer is unique, merely that it does not contradict what we know, and does not contradict itself.

  9. #66
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Pfft.
    The sound of air escaping an overfilled rebuttal.

    "Clearly, [unmitigated fantasy follows]." Color me less than astonished. The context for that is rather clear, Jerk; Paul is declaiming against Judaizers here. Perhaps you might pay more attention to context than to your favorite skeptical contrivance du jour.
    Certainly he was declaiming against Judaizers. The question remains, was he right to do so? In support, we have Paul saying he was, based on communications with the spirit world, while railing against those looking to make purchases with the same currency. Stew for the wolf is stew for the shepherds.

    Bonus points for "skeptical contrivance du jour," by the way. If you can't be right, the next best thing is to be wrong with style.

  10. #67
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    Keep in mind TWeb is a resurrected site, having suffered an unsalvageable server crash some years ago that took most of the historical posts with it. The original site launched in 2002, or maybe 2003 ... (I'm not so good with dates). The original owners balanced the hard-hitting forums with community building, awarding "spam points" for posting the less serious threads.

    It was routine back then to be joking in one area with the guy or gal you were blasting in another. We coveted, or were jealous of, or lorded it up with the apple icons in our postbits earned for joining during the first year the forum was up. We had alumni of the month, and the year, contests ... Thirsty Possum, the forever 3rd grader, recalcitrant, and unreconstructed sock that Deb (the late Crow) and I shared, famously won one of those votes.

    I made aluminum! For a whole month! Yea!!

    I was never so proud of him.
    I have been here since almost the beginning when I lived in China. I visited the "Other site," but found it too toxic. Yes the crash of the cite was devastating and almost termial, but I am thankful for the resurrection.
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  11. Amen Juvenal, Teallaura amen'd this post.
  12. #68
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    If you understood me rightly, you'd understand I consider Paul to be the wolf archetype. There are any number of uncomfortable incidents lending support. Most scholars consider his reported admonition of Peter a face-saving fabulism. He brags about his lack of interaction with Jesus' principal disciples, yet later attempts to buy his way into the Jerusalem adherents' good graces ... and was spectacularly less than successful.



    There are multiple possible interpretations, some of which are more consistent with preserving Paul's image than the available evidence. I ask myself why he felt the need to rail against visions from angels. I ask myself whether the claimed intervention on the road to Damascus is consistent with Christian theology, or even with itself in its second telling. I don't claim my answer is unique, merely that it does not contradict what we know, and does not contradict itself.

    Ah. Whose interpretations of Paul are you most familiar with?

    I think your point on Damascus is a bit limiting about how can God interact with specific people.

    You still didn't explain why Paul shouldn't protect Christians from false doctrines.

  13. #69
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    Paul was both the first and the most successful church splitter, a braggart,
    Such as? If this is about 2 Corinthians 11, the "boasting" is meant ironically.

    a liar,
    Where? I hope this isn't supposed to be the usual invocation of Paul's statement in Romans 3:7, because that's an idea that Paul is condemning in context.

    and an opportunist repeatedly hoist by his own petard.
    I've no idea what this one is supposed to be.

    The manky Scot, prior to his apostasy, once mentioned that a lot of folks credit Paul with his own religion, Paulianity.
    I don't know who "the manky Scot" is supposed to be, but "a lot of folks" disagree with that assertion of Paul creating his own religion. Just saying "a lot of folks" think something isn't proof of it.

    I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel — which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

    Clearly, folks were claiming new revelations from angels that ran contrary to the new revelations from angels bestowed on their founder. Color me less than astonished.
    Clearly? Paul's statement of "an angel from heaven" is a rhetorical device and doesn't mean that people actually were getting such revelations. This is affirmed by what immediately precedes it, when he says "Even if we or an angel from heaven." As Paul is not declaring that the gospel he is preaching is different from the one he preached earlier, this (along with the angel) is simply Paul choosing hypothetical absurdities to rhetorically make his point.

  14. #70
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    United Methodist Church is expected to split over gay marriage, fracturing the nation’s third-largest denomination

    Church leaders said Friday they had agreed to spin off a “traditionalist Methodist" denomination, while allowing the remaining portion of the United Methodist Church to permit same-sex marriage and LGBT clergy for the first time in its history.

    By Julie Zauzmer
    Jan. 3, 2020 at 11:02 a.m. EST

    The United Methodist Church is expected to split into more than one denomination in an attempt to bring to a close a years-long and contentious fight over same-sex marriage.

    The historic schism would divide the third-largest religious denomination in the United States.

    Civics, because it seems more political than religious. YMMV.

    So the non-LGBT affirming splitters will be the Trads, while the dividers will still be called United. "Splitters," because congregations will have to vote to split, else become affirming by default. At 3.6 percent, (compare to the SBC's 5.3 percent), pre-split, they're the largest mainline denomination, and will become the last of the mainliners to support same-sex marriage.

    After the separation, the agreement said, the remaining United Methodist Church would hold another conference with the purpose of removing the church’s bans on same-sex marriage and LGBT clergy.

    Previously, adding leverage to the split, draconian sanctions were set to go into effect for clergy performing these post-Obergefell-now-legal marriages, starting with a one-year-without-pay suspension for a first offense, and dismemberment for additional rites.

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