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Thread: A Look At The Olivet Discourse

  1. #31
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Verses 27-28.

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    How is the coming of the Son of Man? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Why am I skipping verses 24-26? I really don’t think there’s much there that isn’t covered in my look at verse 23. With that, I am going to move on then to verses 27-28. The main point I want to emphasize is the coming of the Son of Man, a term that has to be looked at.

    “For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. “

    Let’s start with something right off. Some emphasize that the coming of Jesus must be visible because lightning is visible when it is seen. This begs the question. It says that a visible event is described because it uses literal language and literal language is used to describe a visible event.

    However, what is meant that the impact of the coming of the Son of Man will be seen from that distance. Lightning is often associated in the Old Testament with the act of deity, particularly YHWH, as well. After discussing birds, I will return to things I have said about the coming.

    Birds were seen as first off a sign that the covenant had been broken and curses were taking place. Not only that, birds would show up after a battle so that they could feast on the corpses of the dead. What this would indicate is a great battle taking place where many of the dead are waiting there. In Jerusalem, there would not be proper burials at this time due to Romans not caring about Jewish sensitivities when busy obliterating them. Many of the Jews were crucified and left to hang where the birds would devour them.

    So what about the coming?

    As I have said before, language of coming assumes that Jesus is coming to Earth in this event. He is not. The disciples asked the sign of Jesus’s coming while He was still there and without a concept that He would truly die, let alone be resurrected and then ascend and leave the Earth. This is about kingship.

    The same is being spoken of when Jesus refers to Daniel. The Son of Man is not coming down. He is going up. He is approaching the Ancient of Days. This is then asking what it the sign that Jesus is coming to His throne? Judgment is one of those signs.

    Next time, we will get into some more cosmic language and see what happens to the sun and the stars. Surely we’re getting into something futuristic that hasn’t happened before. Right? We’ll see.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters
    They may not have completely understood the concept of his resurrection, but John 14 tells us what they were inquiring about his coming.

    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  2. #32
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Different word used. Matthew is about the Parousia. John uses erchomai. Note they weren't asking about a coming there anyway. He was telling them He was going to prepare a place for them. This is also not in the Olivet Discourse. It's comparing apples and oranges.

  3. #33
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Different word used. Matthew is about the Parousia. John uses erchomai. Note they weren't asking about a coming there anyway. He was telling them He was going to prepare a place for them. This is also not in the Olivet Discourse. It's comparing apples and oranges.
    Matthew 24:30 also uses erchomai. So by your logic, Jesus was referring to the 70 AD war in John 14.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  4. #34
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Jesus also talked about leaving in the Upper Room discourse in John. He had said nothing about leaving on the Mount of Olives and the disciples made it clear that they didn't understand what Jesus was saying in that passage. Jesus is also talking about returning to His people in John 14. In Matthew, He's talking about coming in judgment.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Jesus also talked about leaving in the Upper Room discourse in John. He had said nothing about leaving on the Mount of Olives and the disciples made it clear that they didn't understand what Jesus was saying in that passage. Jesus is also talking about returning to His people in John 14. In Matthew, He's talking about coming in judgment.
    I agree that the disciples were thoroughly confused. Matthew 24:31 is talking about the rapture (which is NOT pre-trib) and this is what he was speaking of in John 14. He was clarifying the misunderstanding by using erchomai (rapture) and parousia (second coming) to distinguish the two. Nonetheless, anyone looking at John 14's reference can clearly see he's speaking of a second coming -- "I will come again" -- contrary to what you said in post #30. In fact, everything about what I bolded in your post #30 is just thoroughly wrong and full of error, but I won't get into it.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  6. #36
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Sean. Jesus will bodily return someday. Every Orthodox Preterist agrees with that. My thing in post 30 was saying the language of coming in the discourse is a coming to Earth. I see no reason to think that a rapture is being described in Matthew 24. Jesus talks about the reference to Daniel where the Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days. He's going up and not coming down.

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    Okay, man. You can believe what you want to believe, but I feel folks should know the errors you made in your prior post. Like you stated matter of factly they had no concept he would die, yet this is ignoring passages to the contrary. There were early rabbinic beliefs that Messiah would die, and John 11:16 is a pretty good indication they were expecting this, though I'll concede it's debatable whether they all believed this. Did you not know about that passage? We might assume they couldn't quite grasp the dynamic of the resurrection, but he did tell them beforehand multiple times, so they at least were knowledgeable about it. What I'll agree with is that they DEFINITELY didn't expect him to be crucified. That we know for sure, and that's undoubtedly what nullified any belief they may have had in his resurrection prior, but the OD obviously occurred before this. Then you implied they had no knowledge he would leave and return when in fact, as I pointed out, John 14 clearly indicates they did, and so there's no reason to assume this wasn't what they were inquiring about in the OD. But again, believe what you want to believe, I just feel folks should know how you base all this on some pretty significant errors.

    I'm done.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  8. #38
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    Okay, man. You can believe what you want to believe, but I feel folks should know the errors you made in your prior post. Like you stated matter of factly they had no concept he would die, yet this is ignoring passages to the contrary.
    No it's not. When Jesus first mentions His death, Peter is dumbfounded and says this won't happen. They are going to Jerusalem and they are expecting that He will proclaim Himself Messiah, especially after the triumphant entry.

    There were early rabbinic beliefs that Messiah would die, and John 11:16 is a pretty good indication they were expecting this, though I'll concede it's debatable whether they all believed this.
    No it's not. The with him was quite likely Lazarus in that passage and not Jesus. As for early Rabbinic beliefs Messiah would die, I would need to see them.

    Did you not know about that passage?
    Yeah. I do. Kind of doubtful you do now.

    We might assume they couldn't quite grasp the dynamic of the resurrection, but he did tell them beforehand multiple times, so they at least were knowledgeable about it.
    Yeah. Look at times like the transfiguration. When Jesus talks about "rising again" the disciples are confused what that means.

    What I'll agree with is that they DEFINITELY didn't expect him to be crucified.
    Even though Luke 9:22 specifically says that so by your argument given.....

    [QUOTE] That we know for sure, and that's undoubtedly what nullified any belief they may have had in his resurrection prior, but the OD obviously occurred before this. [/QUOTE[

    Duh.

    Then you implied they had no knowledge he would leave and return when in fact, as I pointed out, John 14 clearly indicates they did, and so there's no reason to assume this wasn't what they were inquiring about in the OD.
    Yeah there is. This happened on the night that Jesus was betrayed. So what happened? Jesus has the upper room discourse with them and on the way out, they briefly stop at the temple and then go to the Mount of Olives and have a long talk that John completely leaves out and then go to the garden for the high priestly prayer?

    Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.

    But again, believe what you want to believe, I just feel folks should know how you base all this on some pretty significant errors.
    It would be nice to know what they are.

    I'm done.
    No doubt there.

  9. #39
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    Is chaos in the heavens future?

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    What in the Heavens is going on? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Ah. Now we’re getting into stuff that definitely sounds like it’s more in line with futurism. After all, surely none of this stuff happened in the 1st century. Right? What kind of stuff? Let’s look at Matthew 24:29

    ” Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.”

    Years ago, Neil Degrasse Tyson sadly gave a more common reading of this passage.

    “You know, one of the signs that the second coming, is that the stars will fall out of the sky and land on Earth. To even write that means you don’t know what those things are. You have no concept of what the actual universe is. So everybody who tried to make proclamations about the physical universe based on Bible passages got the wrong answer.“

    Sadly, most churches today would accept this reading as well. After all, there’s supposed to be something sacred in taking the text literally. I prefer to take the text as I think Jesus really intended it. Jesus was more than a prophet of course, but he was at least that. How did prophets speak? We go to the Old Testament to find out.

    2 Samuel 22 is one of my favorite passages to go to. Look at this song David sings about his lifetime.

    7 “In my distress I called upon the Lord;
    to my God I called.
    From his temple he heard my voice,
    and my cry came to his ears.

    8 “Then the earth reeled and rocked;
    the foundations of the heavens trembled
    and quaked, because he was angry.
    9 Smoke went up from his nostrils,
    and devouring fire from his mouth;
    glowing coals flamed forth from him.
    10 He bowed the heavens and came down;
    thick darkness was under his feet.
    11 He rode on a cherub and flew;
    he was seen on the wings of the wind.
    12 He made darkness around him his canopy,
    thick clouds, a gathering of water.
    13 Out of the brightness before him
    coals of fire flamed forth.
    14 The Lord thundered from heaven,
    and the Most High uttered his voice.
    15 And he sent out arrows and scattered them;
    lightning, and routed them.
    16 Then the channels of the sea were seen;
    the foundations of the world were laid bare,
    at the rebuke of the Lord,
    at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.

    Search all you want through the life of David and you will not find this. You will not find YHWH hitching a ride on Gabriel and Michael and coming down Green Arrow style blasting the bad guys. You will not find the channels of the sea being seen and the foundations of the world laid bare. So either we believe that the writer of this text had to leave out one of the most amazing events in the life of David, or else that we are misunderstanding the way Jews speak if we take this literally.

    Isaiah 13 is another such case.

    9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
    cruel, with wrath and fierce anger,
    to make the land a desolation
    and to destroy its sinners from it.
    10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations
    will not give their light;
    the sun will be dark at its rising,
    and the moon will not shed its light.
    11 I will punish the world for its evil,
    and the wicked for their iniquity;
    I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant,
    and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.
    12 I will make people more rare than fine gold,
    and mankind than the gold of Ophir.
    13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble,
    and the earth will be shaken out of its place,
    at the wrath of the Lord of hosts
    in the day of his fierce anger.
    14 And like a hunted gazelle,
    or like sheep with none to gather them,
    each will turn to his own people,
    and each will flee to his own land.
    15 Whoever is found will be thrust through,
    and whoever is caught will fall by the sword.
    16 Their infants will be dashed in pieces
    before their eyes;
    their houses will be plundered
    and their wives ravished.

    Now some of you might be tempted to think this is future, but wait. God says in the next verse that he is raising up the Medes against them. The Medes did eventually come and conquer Babylon. However, none of the stuff if taken literally happened as described.

    Ezekiel 32

    “You consider yourself a lion of the nations,
    but you are like a dragon in the seas;
    you burst forth in your rivers,
    trouble the waters with your feet,
    and foul their rivers.
    3 Thus says the Lord God:
    I will throw my net over you
    with a host of many peoples,
    and they will haul you up in my dragnet.
    4 And I will cast you on the ground;
    on the open field I will fling you,
    and will cause all the birds of the heavens to settle on you,
    and I will gorge the beasts of the whole earth with you.
    5 I will strew your flesh upon the mountains
    and fill the valleys with your carcass.
    6 I will drench the land even to the mountains
    with your flowing blood,
    and the ravines will be full of you.
    7 When I blot you out, I will cover the heavens
    and make their stars dark;
    I will cover the sun with a cloud,
    and the moon shall not give its light.
    8 All the bright lights of heaven
    will I make dark over you,
    and put darkness on your land,
    declares the Lord God.

    This describes God’s judgment on Israel in the past. Again, the language is eerily similar to what we find in the Olivet Discourse. Once again, either we need to take it all literally or we need to try to understand the way ancient Jews spoke.

    Ezekiel 39 has the following:

    9 “Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and make fires of the weapons and burn them, shields and bucklers, bow and arrows, clubs and spears; and they will make fires of them for seven years, 10 so that they will not need to take wood out of the field or cut down any out of the forests, for they will make their fires of the weapons. They will seize the spoil of those who despoiled them, and plunder those who plundered them, declares the Lord God.

    This kind of passage shows us that many prophecies were indeed for the near future. Many futurists interpret this as a great future battle. It will be an interesting one if we are using bows and arrows and shields and bucklers again. True, some prophecies had a long range far ahead into the future, but to read many dispensationalists today, you’d think the only times worth talking about were the time of Jesus and what is supposedly our time today.

    So what is going on?

    When the Jews spoke of intense political events, they often used cosmic language. War would be such an event. This kind of language was not meant to be literal. It was meant to indicate chaos on the realm of Earth as kings and others went to battle. The disciples would have understood that war was coming.

    Don’t read the text like Tyson. Read it like a first-century Jew. If you do that and you read it as the language of warfare and judgment, then again, Jesus is still spot on. You are also being consistent with the prior first-century milleu found in the text.

    But that’s one verse. What about others?

    We’ll see when we get there.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  10. #40
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    Signs. Signs. Everywhere a sign.

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    Is everybody looking for a sign? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    So this next verse is again one that many futurists will jump at and say “See! This has to be future!” No. It doesn’t. I will again here be explaining why it is that I think the context better fits a first-century milleu described in typical apocalyptic language of the time. Let’s look at the verse.

    “Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

    What we have to ask is what is being seen. Does it mean that the sign will be seen in Heaven or that the sign is of something in Heaven? I have traditionally been using the ESV, but let’s point out other translations renders this differently.

    NIV:

    “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.”

    Berean Literal Bible: And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

    Berean Study Bible: At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

    NASB: “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

    NKJV: Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    I could go on, but you get the point. Notice something about these other translations. Heaven comes after Son of Man each time. I personally think the NIV has it most accurately. However, if you think I’m being arbitrary….

    καὶ τότε φανήσεται τὸ σημεῖον τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ καὶ τότε κόψονται πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς καὶ ὄψονται τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐρχόμενον ἐπὶ τῶν νεφελῶν τοῦ οὐρανοῦ μετὰ δυνάμεως καὶ δόξης πολλῆς·

    Go to a site like Blueletterbible.com and look up the verse in Greek and see that Heaven follows AFTER the Son of Man each time. Note also this fits with other passages. In Matthew 26, Jesus tells Caiaphas that he will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Father and coming on the clouds of glory. I plan to look at this verse in greater depth later, but note what it says. Sitting and coming both. It doesn’t mean Caiaphas will look out his window one day and see Jesus riding on a cloud like Goku on his Nimbus. Also, Caiaphas certainly won’t see Jesus at the right hand of the Father literally since no one can see God and live.

    Coming refers to judgment and sitting refers to ruling. Jesus sitting means that He is ruling and Jesus coming means that He is judging. What Jesus is saying is that Caiaphas will see that Jesus is ruling from the right hand of God and judging. This is quite the turnaround! The Sanhedrin is trying to judge Jesus, and Jesus is promising that He will judge them instead.

    So what is Jesus promising that will be seen? The destruction of the temple as the location of the sign is not specified. Note that only at the beginning do we hear about the temple being destroyed explicitly. This is where Jesus is saying this is happening. The temple being destroyed means something new is being set up or at least an old way of doing things is ended. The system of Judaism at the time is ended. The new temple has been built. It is the temple of the church with the Spirit living in believers.

    Why will the tribes mourn? Because the mourning means that judgment has come and Jerusalem will be no more. Also, I think Jerusalem is the Babylon that is pointed to in Revelation. We will spend more time on Revelation later in looking at eschatology and touching other passages like 1 Cor. 15, Psalm 110, and 2 Peter.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

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