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Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

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Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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This generation...

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  • This generation...

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

    this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

    © Copyright Original Source



    This verse is one of the major "prooftexts" of preterism. "There it is in black and white," they hiss, while living a "Christian" life of such utter self-absorption that they can't see the world falling apart around them. "Proof that the prophecies were fulfilled in the first century."

    But hole up.

    That the word translated generation (genea in the Greek) can also mean race or tribe is agreed upon by scholars. In fact genea is a "presumed derivative" of the Greek word genos, which means kindred. So the standard futurist rebuttal has been that "this generation" refers to the Jewish people, who would never cease to exist as a people until the prophecies were fulfilled or near fulfillment. I used to subscribe to this notion, though I always felt that although sound, it was not quite rigorously proven enough for my taste and ignored the obvious sense in which Jesus did mean the generation He spoke to.

    Then I discovered the idea of double fulfillment, the notion that Biblical prophecies could (and often did) see multiple instances of fulfillment. "Her seed" and the "serpent's seed" (Abel and Cain and Jesus and the Antichrist). David's son building a temple (Solomon and Jesus). A child named Immanuel (Isaiah's son and Jesus). Babylon invading God's land "at the time of the end" (Nebuchadnezzar, Rome, the end time empire).

    Hebrew is a "punny" language. Every letter means different things, which leads to every word having multiple meanings. I used to think this was just a quirky fact, but now I realize that everything God says and does must have more than just one meaning (though never more than one truth), because He means everything. There is only one truth, but there is so much that comprises the truth. So much, in fact, that the truth can only be "summed up" in one Person. The infinite made finite. The Word (meaning) of God. Jesus Christ. He was, is and always will be what God means. And what God means is the truth.

    All that to say that Jesus meant more than one thing by "this generation." Yes, He meant that the generation of the people He was standing among would see "a" fulfillment of the signs He gave. But He also meant the "generation" living at the time the signs saw their greatest fulfillment. And He also meant something else I shall try to elucidate.

    One of the root meanings of generation is "fruit" or "seed" (as in what is "generated" or produced by the plant). So generation is also used as a stand-in for seed in Scripture:

    Scripture Verse: Psalm 22

    30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Psalm 112

    2 His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.

    © Copyright Original Source





    In Deuteronomy 32, obviously God is not speaking of a single generation, but of the Israelites as a whole. New Testament authors even quoted verse 21 in condemnation of a much later generation than the one of the Exodus.

    Which brings me to the point. The third and arguably more important sense in which Jesus meant "generation" was the holy seed. The seed of the woman, of which He was the foremost, but which consisted of the Israelites, foremost of which during His day were the Jews, but also Christians, who have been grafted into Israel. The holy seed and the serpent seed have been contrasted all through Scripture:

    Scripture Verse: Psalm 12

    1 Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. ... 7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Mark 8

    38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation

    © Copyright Original Source



    Has Jesus come with His angels yet? Then He didn't just mean the generation that heard Him. Aside from the fact that it hasn't been ok to be ashamed of Him or His words since that generation died. Preterism is stupid.

    Scripture Verse: Luke 16

    8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

    © Copyright Original Source



    In Luke 16, the two opposing "generations" are made explicit. The children of this world (seed of the serpent) and the children of light.

    Scripture Verse: 1 Peter 2

    9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    © Copyright Original Source



    A chosen generation (people/nation/seed) of light. Another word for chosen is elect. Keep that in mind for later.

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 12

    34 O generation of vipers [seed of serpent], how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Here's some context to Jesus' "this generation" statement:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

    but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Now that we know elect = chosen = "this" generation (or the generation of light), we can see that one of the meanings of "this generation" is a restatement of the claim that the elect will survive what is coming, because the days will be shortened and because they will live to see all the signs come to pass. (We shall not all sleep, but those who are alive and remain shall be changed.)

    So to recap, Jesus meant all three things at once. Being the truth and God Himself, He can pack a lot of information into few words. "No one ever spoke the way this man does." The generation that heard Him would see the signs. A future generation would see all the signs. And the generation of light would not pass away (die, pass away, be destroyed, be overcome by the gates of hell) before all was fulfilled and all the signs came to pass.

    For some additional confirmation, let's look at a prooftext preterists ignore, which also happens to be the preceding verses:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

    leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Is anyone aware of preterists dealing with the fact that Israel is called a fig tree throughout Scripture?

    Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 24

    2 One basket had very good figsFigs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians. 6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Hosea 9

    Israel,
    it was like finding grapes in the desert;
    when I saw your ancestors,
    it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Luke 13

    fig tree

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Mark 11

    12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figsthey saw the fig tree withered from the roots

    © Copyright Original Source



    It's no coincidence that the Lord Jesus curses the fig tree at the time when the leaders of Israel at that time firmly rejected and plotted to kill Him. It was highly symbolic. The point of the parable of the fig tree blooming again is the acceptance of the Israel which at that time was rejected, as I've also explained in my Elijah post.

    The Greek word translated "leaves" in the verse of the fig tree indicating the "nearness" of the time of the fulfillment of the signs is "phullon." It is related to the word translated "tribes" in this verse:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    © Copyright Original Source



    That word tribes is the Greek word "phule." The phrasing in this verse is also reminiscent of "and every eye shall see Him, even those who pierced Him (referring to the Jews)". The "tribes/leaves" which will be budding are the tribes of Israel, which began doing so in 1948 when the country was miraculously reformed after 2,000 years. That was a major "sign" Jesus gave to indicate the nearness of the end and of His return.

    Futurism is wrong to ignore the signs which occurred in the first century, because their purpose (aside from the purifying of the church then which will be repeated in the end days) was to warn of what is coming on a global scale for "this generation." But at least futurists are prepared to some degree. Preterists who claim God only cares to hold the Jews accountable and smirks at their own sin are an eternal danger to themselves and everyone around them.

    This understanding is not of my own devising but was given to me by the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, to whom belongs all glory, praise and honor, and to His Father and our Father.

    Though we be but "shadows and broken images"
    We shall see Him as He is
    For it is to the pure He shall appear
    Punishment has to do with fear

    We know not what we shall be
    But we will know as we are known
    It is only to the pure in heart
    That the face of God is shown

    For before His face the shadows flee
    And death cannot abide the sight
    Only those whose eyes be single
    Can bear the unapproachable light

  • #2
    Is there something particular you'd like to discuss, or was did you just feel like blogging?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Is there something particular you'd like to discuss, or was did you just feel like blogging?
      As usual, no interaction with the data, no Scriptural support for your position, just insults. Par for the course here. Let those who have ears to hear hear what is being said.

      Comment


      • #4
        I am a futurist too Darfius but I see a few problems with your reasoning above..

        1. The NT was written in Greek, not Hebrew so whether Hebrew is "punny" or not doesn't matter.
        2. Jesus was actually speaking in Aramaic, not Hebrew or Greek.


        It could still be a double fulfillment but I think your reliance on Hebrew to prove it is mistaken.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Darfius View Post
          As usual, no interaction with the data, no Scriptural support for your position, just insults. Par for the course here. Let those who have ears to hear hear what is being said.
          Goodness, didn't mean to rattle your cage. You posted a LOT of stuff, and I was simply asking a question.

          For that, I didn't need "data" of "Scrptural support", and I posted no "position", and it certainly wasn't intended as an "insult".

          You might wanna dial the sensitivity down just a tad.

          Unsubscribing.

          Oh, and what Sparko said.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #6
            I feel the emphasis should be put on his meaning of "this" than the word generation. It would be like if I was a nuclear scientist and knew from my extensive knowledge what the effect of a nuclear exchange would have on humanity and then I said -- "This generation will be devastated once the nuclear war happens." It sounds like I'm predicting this current generation, when I'm actually just stating a fact of its effects on whichever generation sees the nuclear war happen. Jesus himself said even he doesn't know the day, so he obviously didn't know the precise generation, but he knew that whichever generation saw those signs happen, the signs would quickly progress in a way that it would happen all within that generation.

            Comment


            • #7
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #8
                In Matthew 1:17 it means a sequence or series of people from the same lineage

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Let's take a look at "this generation" throughout scripture, just for kicks (NRSV):

                  Current generation, clearly.

                  Current generation, clearly.
                  Source: Ps. 12:7

                  You, O Lord, will protect us; you will guard us from this generation forever.

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  Current generation, clearly.

                  Current generation, clearly.

                  Current generation, clearly (all instances).

                  Current generation, clearly.
                  Source: Mat. 24:34

                  Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  The passage at issue.

                  Current generation, clearly.
                  Source: Mark 8:38

                  Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  Current generation, clearly.
                  Source: Mark 13:30

                  Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  Parallel to the passage at issue.

                  Current generation, clearly.

                  Current generation, clearly.

                  Current generation, clearly.

                  Current generation, clearly.
                  Source: Luke 21:32

                  Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things have taken place.

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  Parallel to the passage at issue.

                  Current generation, clearly.

                  Huh. Turns out that every other use of the phrase is talking about the generation listening - and even seanD admits that the passage at hand looks like it should be interpreted that way as well.
                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Let's take a look at "this generation" throughout scripture, just for kicks (NRSV):...

                    Huh. Turns out that every other use of the phrase is talking about the generation listening - and even seanD admits that the passage at hand looks like it should be interpreted that way as well.
                    I really think it's better to look at the Greek word that was translated "generation" as opposed to looking at the English words used throughout the Bible. That phrase occurs in Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32.

                    And I'm not arguing for "this generation" meaning "race/species/kind" - just pointing out that's a possible translation.

                    It's more likely that Jesus is referring to a specific generation of people, but "this" doesn't necessarily refer to the "present" generation (those alive at His time) but the future generation of the prophecy He's revealing.

                    Like I were to be talking about a generation 60 years from now, then referred to that generation as "this generation" (the one I'm talking about in the future)...
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Let's take a look at "this generation" throughout scripture, just for kicks (NRSV):

                      Current generation, clearly.

                      Current generation, clearly.
                      Source: Ps. 12:7

                      You, O Lord, will protect us; you will guard us from this generation forever.

                      © Copyright Original Source


                      Current generation, clearly.

                      Current generation, clearly.

                      Current generation, clearly (all instances).

                      Current generation, clearly.
                      Source: Mat. 24:34

                      Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

                      © Copyright Original Source


                      The passage at issue.

                      Current generation, clearly.
                      Source: Mark 8:38

                      Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

                      © Copyright Original Source


                      Current generation, clearly.
                      Source: Mark 13:30

                      Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

                      © Copyright Original Source


                      Parallel to the passage at issue.

                      Current generation, clearly.

                      Current generation, clearly.

                      Current generation, clearly.

                      Current generation, clearly.
                      Source: Luke 21:32

                      Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things have taken place.

                      © Copyright Original Source


                      Parallel to the passage at issue.

                      Current generation, clearly.

                      Huh. Turns out that every other use of the phrase is talking about the generation listening - and even seanD admits that the passage at hand looks like it should be interpreted that way as well.
                      The problem with making a comparison with other uses of generation as proof-text that Jesus meant his generation is it gives more ammo to the skeptical crowd who argue Jesus was wrong in his prediction, because one of the signs was his return. And then that explains why the preterist has to conclude Matthew 24:30-31 isn't the parousia but the 70 AD war, which just looks extremely disingenuous.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Like I were to be talking about a generation 60 years from now, then referred to that generation as "this generation" (the one I'm talking about in the future)...
                        And the word "this" can also mean "that":

                        "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left." (Lk 17:34)

                        Same word, only here it means "that night", so we might have "that generation" in Matthew and Luke. Also, Jesus seemed to know his words here would be controversial: "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." (Lk 21:32-33)

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        Last edited by lee_merrill; 01-12-2020, 08:11 PM.
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          And the word "this" can also mean "that":

                          "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left." (Lk 17:34)

                          Same word, only here it means "that night", so we might have "that generation" in Matthew and Luke. Also, Jesus seemed to know his words here would be controversial: "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." (Lk 21:32-33)

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          Seems so much more simple than to say Jesus's prediction wasn't wrong because Matthew 24:30-31 doesn't really mean the return of Christ, as some sort of ridiculous cover story.

                          Comment

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