Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: This generation...

  1. #1
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    701
    Amen (Given)
    65
    Amen (Received)
    35

    This generation...

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

    32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

    © Copyright Original Source



    This verse is one of the major "prooftexts" of preterism. "There it is in black and white," they hiss, while living a "Christian" life of such utter self-absorption that they can't see the world falling apart around them. "Proof that the prophecies were fulfilled in the first century."

    But hole up.

    That the word translated generation (genea in the Greek) can also mean race or tribe is agreed upon by scholars. In fact genea is a "presumed derivative" of the Greek word genos, which means kindred. So the standard futurist rebuttal has been that "this generation" refers to the Jewish people, who would never cease to exist as a people until the prophecies were fulfilled or near fulfillment. I used to subscribe to this notion, though I always felt that although sound, it was not quite rigorously proven enough for my taste and ignored the obvious sense in which Jesus did mean the generation He spoke to.

    Then I discovered the idea of double fulfillment, the notion that Biblical prophecies could (and often did) see multiple instances of fulfillment. "Her seed" and the "serpent's seed" (Abel and Cain and Jesus and the Antichrist). David's son building a temple (Solomon and Jesus). A child named Immanuel (Isaiah's son and Jesus). Babylon invading God's land "at the time of the end" (Nebuchadnezzar, Rome, the end time empire).

    Hebrew is a "punny" language. Every letter means different things, which leads to every word having multiple meanings. I used to think this was just a quirky fact, but now I realize that everything God says and does must have more than just one meaning (though never more than one truth), because He means everything. There is only one truth, but there is so much that comprises the truth. So much, in fact, that the truth can only be "summed up" in one Person. The infinite made finite. The Word (meaning) of God. Jesus Christ. He was, is and always will be what God means. And what God means is the truth.

    All that to say that Jesus meant more than one thing by "this generation." Yes, He meant that the generation of the people He was standing among would see "a" fulfillment of the signs He gave. But He also meant the "generation" living at the time the signs saw their greatest fulfillment. And He also meant something else I shall try to elucidate.

    One of the root meanings of generation is "fruit" or "seed" (as in what is "generated" or produced by the plant). So generation is also used as a stand-in for seed in Scripture:

    Scripture Verse: Psalm 22

    30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Psalm 112

    2 His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 32

    19
    The Lord saw this and rejected them
    because he was angered by his sons and daughters.
    20
    “I will hide my face from them,” he said,
    “and see what their end will be;
    for they are a perverse generation,
    children who are unfaithful.
    21
    They made me jealous by what is no god
    and angered me with their worthless idols.
    I will make them envious by those who are not a people;
    I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.

    © Copyright Original Source



    In Deuteronomy 32, obviously God is not speaking of a single generation, but of the Israelites as a whole. New Testament authors even quoted verse 21 in condemnation of a much later generation than the one of the Exodus.

    Which brings me to the point. The third and arguably more important sense in which Jesus meant "generation" was the holy seed. The seed of the woman, of which He was the foremost, but which consisted of the Israelites, foremost of which during His day were the Jews, but also Christians, who have been grafted into Israel. The holy seed and the serpent seed have been contrasted all through Scripture:

    Scripture Verse: Psalm 12

    1 Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. ... 7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Mark 8

    38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    Has Jesus come with His angels yet? Then He didn't just mean the generation that heard Him. Aside from the fact that it hasn't been ok to be ashamed of Him or His words since that generation died. Preterism is stupid.

    Scripture Verse: Luke 16

    8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

    © Copyright Original Source



    In Luke 16, the two opposing "generations" are made explicit. The children of this world (seed of the serpent) and the children of light.

    Scripture Verse: 1 Peter 2

    9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    © Copyright Original Source



    A chosen generation (people/nation/seed) of light. Another word for chosen is elect. Keep that in mind for later.

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 12

    34 O generation of vipers [seed of serpent], how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Here's some context to Jesus' "this generation" statement:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

    22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Now that we know elect = chosen = "this" generation (or the generation of light), we can see that one of the meanings of "this generation" is a restatement of the claim that the elect will survive what is coming, because the days will be shortened and because they will live to see all the signs come to pass. (We shall not all sleep, but those who are alive and remain shall be changed.)

    So to recap, Jesus meant all three things at once. Being the truth and God Himself, He can pack a lot of information into few words. "No one ever spoke the way this man does." The generation that heard Him would see the signs. A future generation would see all the signs. And the generation of light would not pass away (die, pass away, be destroyed, be overcome by the gates of hell) before all was fulfilled and all the signs came to pass.

    For some additional confirmation, let's look at a prooftext preterists ignore, which also happens to be the preceding verses:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

    32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Is anyone aware of preterists dealing with the fact that Israel is called a fig tree throughout Scripture?

    Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 24

    2 One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very bad figs, so bad they could not be eaten.
    3 Then the Lord asked me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?”
    Figs,” I answered. “The good ones are very good, but the bad ones are so bad they cannot be eaten.”
    4 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 5 “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians. 6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Hosea 9

    10
    “When I found Israel,
    it was like finding grapes in the desert;
    when I saw your ancestors,
    it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Luke 13

    6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
    8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Mark 11

    12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.
    15 On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’”
    18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.
    19 When evening came, Jesus and his disciples went out of the city.
    20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

    © Copyright Original Source



    It's no coincidence that the Lord Jesus curses the fig tree at the time when the leaders of Israel at that time firmly rejected and plotted to kill Him. It was highly symbolic. The point of the parable of the fig tree blooming again is the acceptance of the Israel which at that time was rejected, as I've also explained in my Elijah post.

    The Greek word translated "leaves" in the verse of the fig tree indicating the "nearness" of the time of the fulfillment of the signs is "phullon." It is related to the word translated "tribes" in this verse:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    © Copyright Original Source



    That word tribes is the Greek word "phule." The phrasing in this verse is also reminiscent of "and every eye shall see Him, even those who pierced Him (referring to the Jews)". The "tribes/leaves" which will be budding are the tribes of Israel, which began doing so in 1948 when the country was miraculously reformed after 2,000 years. That was a major "sign" Jesus gave to indicate the nearness of the end and of His return.

    Futurism is wrong to ignore the signs which occurred in the first century, because their purpose (aside from the purifying of the church then which will be repeated in the end days) was to warn of what is coming on a global scale for "this generation." But at least futurists are prepared to some degree. Preterists who claim God only cares to hold the Jews accountable and smirks at their own sin are an eternal danger to themselves and everyone around them.

    This understanding is not of my own devising but was given to me by the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, to whom belongs all glory, praise and honor, and to His Father and our Father.

    Though we be but "shadows and broken images"
    We shall see Him as He is
    For it is to the pure He shall appear
    Punishment has to do with fear

    We know not what we shall be
    But we will know as we are known
    It is only to the pure in heart
    That the face of God is shown

    For before His face the shadows flee
    And death cannot abide the sight
    Only those whose eyes be single
    Can bear the unapproachable light

  2. #2
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    59,228
    Amen (Given)
    12788
    Amen (Received)
    27286
    Is there something particular you'd like to discuss, or was did you just feel like blogging?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  3. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  4. #3
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    701
    Amen (Given)
    65
    Amen (Received)
    35
    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Is there something particular you'd like to discuss, or was did you just feel like blogging?
    As usual, no interaction with the data, no Scriptural support for your position, just insults. Par for the course here. Let those who have ears to hear hear what is being said.

  5. #4
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    51,126
    Amen (Given)
    5162
    Amen (Received)
    22729
    I am a futurist too Darfius but I see a few problems with your reasoning above..

    1. The NT was written in Greek, not Hebrew so whether Hebrew is "punny" or not doesn't matter.
    2. Jesus was actually speaking in Aramaic, not Hebrew or Greek.


    It could still be a double fulfillment but I think your reliance on Hebrew to prove it is mistaken.

  6. #5
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    59,228
    Amen (Given)
    12788
    Amen (Received)
    27286
    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    As usual, no interaction with the data, no Scriptural support for your position, just insults. Par for the course here. Let those who have ears to hear hear what is being said.
    Goodness, didn't mean to rattle your cage. You posted a LOT of stuff, and I was simply asking a question.

    For that, I didn't need "data" of "Scrptural support", and I posted no "position", and it certainly wasn't intended as an "insult".

    You might wanna dial the sensitivity down just a tad.

    Unsubscribing.

    Oh, and what Sparko said.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  7. #6
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,536
    Amen (Given)
    262
    Amen (Received)
    1059
    I feel the emphasis should be put on his meaning of "this" than the word generation. It would be like if I was a nuclear scientist and knew from my extensive knowledge what the effect of a nuclear exchange would have on humanity and then I said -- "This generation will be devastated once the nuclear war happens." It sounds like I'm predicting this current generation, when I'm actually just stating a fact of its effects on whichever generation sees the nuclear war happen. Jesus himself said even he doesn't know the day, so he obviously didn't know the precise generation, but he knew that whichever generation saw those signs happen, the signs would quickly progress in a way that it would happen all within that generation.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  8. #7
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    59,228
    Amen (Given)
    12788
    Amen (Received)
    27286
    Some have explained it as "this generation [ge-ne-ä]" being this race/species/kind or "that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family"
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  9. #8
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Southeastern U.S. of A.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    55,338
    Amen (Given)
    1170
    Amen (Received)
    20408
    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Some have explained it as "this generation [ge-ne-ä]" being this race/species/kind or "that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family"
    In Matthew 1:17 it means a sequence or series of people from the same lineage

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  10. #9
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    21,623
    Amen (Given)
    6435
    Amen (Received)
    12250
    Let's take a look at "this generation" throughout scripture, just for kicks (NRSV):
    Source: Gen. 7:1

    Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you alone are righteous before me in this generation.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Current generation, clearly.
    Source: Deut. 1:34-36

    34 When the Lord heard your words, he was wrathful and swore: 35 “Not one of these—not one of this evil generation—shall see the good land that I swore to give to your ancestors, 36 except Caleb son of Jephunneh. He shall see it, and to him and to his descendants I will give the land on which he set foot, because of his complete fidelity to the Lord.”

    © Copyright Original Source


    Current generation, clearly.
    Source: Ps. 12:7

    You, O Lord, will protect us; you will guard us from this generation forever.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Current generation, clearly.
    Source: Mat. 11:15-17

    15 Let anyone with ears listen! 16 “But to what will I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to one another, 17 ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not mourn.’

    © Copyright Original Source


    Current generation, clearly.
    Source: Mat. 12:38-45

    38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” 39 But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so for three days and three nights the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth. 41 The people of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and see, something greater than Jonah is here! 42 The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to listen to the wisdom of Solomon, and see, something greater than Solomon is here!
    43 “When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it wanders through waterless regions looking for a resting place, but it finds none. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ When it comes, it finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then it goes and brings along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and live there; and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So will it be also with this evil generation.”

    © Copyright Original Source


    Current generation, clearly (all instances).
    Source: Mat. 23:29-36

    29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous, 30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors. 33 You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Current generation, clearly.
    Source: Mat. 24:34

    Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

    © Copyright Original Source


    The passage at issue.
    Source: Mark 8:12

    And he sighed deeply in his spirit and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to this generation.”

    © Copyright Original Source


    Current generation, clearly.
    Source: Mark 8:38

    Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Current generation, clearly.
    Source: Mark 13:30

    Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Parallel to the passage at issue.
    Source: Luke 7:28-32

    28 I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” 29 (And all the people who heard this, including the tax collectors, acknowledged the justice of God, because they had been baptized with John’s baptism. 30 But by refusing to be baptized by him, the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves.) 31 “To what then will I compare the people of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not weep.’

    © Copyright Original Source


    Current generation, clearly.
    Source: Luke 11:29-32

    29 When the crowds were increasing, he began to say, “This generation is an evil generation; it asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah. 30 For just as Jonah became a sign to the people of Nineveh, so the Son of Man will be to this generation. 31 The queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the people of this generation and condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to listen to the wisdom of Solomon, and see, something greater than Solomon is here! 32 The people of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and see, something greater than Jonah is here!

    © Copyright Original Source


    Current generation, clearly.
    Source: Luke 11:45-52

    45 One of the lawyers answered him, “Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us too.” 46 And he said, “Woe also to you lawyers! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not lift a finger to ease them. 47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your ancestors killed. 48 So you are witnesses and approve of the deeds of your ancestors; for they killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ 50 so that this generation may be charged with the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation. 52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.”

    © Copyright Original Source


    Current generation, clearly.
    Source: Luke 17:22-25

    22 Then he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 They will say to you, ‘Look there!’ or ‘Look here!’ Do not go, do not set off in pursuit. 24 For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day. 25 But first he must endure much suffering and be rejected by this generation.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Current generation, clearly.
    Source: Luke 21:32

    Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things have taken place.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Parallel to the passage at issue.
    Source: Acts 2:38-40

    38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far away, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him.” 40 And he testified with many other arguments and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”

    © Copyright Original Source


    Current generation, clearly.

    Huh. Turns out that every other use of the phrase is talking about the generation listening - and even seanD admits that the passage at hand looks like it should be interpreted that way as well.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  11. #10
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    59,228
    Amen (Given)
    12788
    Amen (Received)
    27286
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Let's take a look at "this generation" throughout scripture, just for kicks (NRSV):...

    Huh. Turns out that every other use of the phrase is talking about the generation listening - and even seanD admits that the passage at hand looks like it should be interpreted that way as well.
    I really think it's better to look at the Greek word that was translated "generation" as opposed to looking at the English words used throughout the Bible. That phrase occurs in Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32.

    And I'm not arguing for "this generation" meaning "race/species/kind" - just pointing out that's a possible translation.

    It's more likely that Jesus is referring to a specific generation of people, but "this" doesn't necessarily refer to the "present" generation (those alive at His time) but the future generation of the prophecy He's revealing.

    Like I were to be talking about a generation 60 years from now, then referred to that generation as "this generation" (the one I'm talking about in the future)...
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •