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EVERY Democrat Opposed Senate Resolution Honoring Military for Soleimani Strike

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  • #46
    Originally posted by seanD View Post
    Business Insider

    I'm just not sure why you posted that link, if now you're arguing it's all Trump's doing
    My point in posting that link was to point out initial evidence that he killed Soleimani for reasons other than an imminent attack. That it was possibly done to buy votes in the impeachment trial makes his actions even worse.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
      My point in posting that link was to point out initial evidence that he killed Soleimani for reasons other than an imminent attack. That it was possibly done to buy votes in the impeachment trial makes his actions even worse.
      I disagree. I think it puts the onus more on the senators. If Trump is being extorted to act against Iran (or be impeached), it begs the question why he didn't green light all-out retaliation against Iran when they attacked our bases (something he was being pressured to do last year as well). It shows his remarkable restraint under the circumstances in spite of being pressured to do so.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        I disagree. I think it puts the onus more on the senators. If Trump is being extorted to act against Iran (or be impeached), it begs the question why he didn't green light all-out retaliation against Iran when they attacked our bases (something he was being pressured to do last year as well). It shows his remarkable restraint under the circumstances in spite of being pressured to do so.
        Okey doke.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
          Okey doke.
          I know. Sometimes it just isn't worth the effort.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
            Okey doke.
            I don't know why that's so difficult to conclude. The article you linked to doesn't say Trump solicited the quid pro quo himself, it claims he was under pressure to do their bidding. We know that senators like Graham practically have a fetish for US military involvement with Iran. I don't know how accurate the article is but that's what it clearly claims. Then when you couple that with the fact he was 10 minutes away from ordering a strike last year but then called it off, it shows me that what he's said in the past about not being a fan of military interventionism seems to be true (though I still don';t get why he surrounds himself with neocons, but that's a separate issue).

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by seanD View Post
              I don't know why that's so difficult to conclude. The article you linked to doesn't say Trump solicited the quid pro quo himself, it claims he was under pressure to do their bidding. We know that senators like Graham practically have a fetish for US military involvement with Iran. I don't know how accurate the article is but that's what it clearly claims. Then when you couple that with the fact he was 10 minutes away from ordering a strike last year but then called it off, it shows me that what he's said in the past about not being a fan of military interventionism seems to be true (though I still don';t get why he surrounds himself with neocons, but that's a separate issue).

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                My point in posting that link was to point out initial evidence that he killed Soleimani for reasons other than an imminent attack. That it was possibly done to buy votes in the impeachment trial makes his actions even worse.
                Yes. Whatever the motive is of less consequence than the apparent fact that Trump lied about why he killed Soleimani. Any military strike by the president is against the law (under the War Powers Act) without express congressional approval except in the case of an imminent threat. So, no “imminent threat”, as increasingly seems to be the case, no justification for Trump’s precipitous action which nearly resulted in war. It looks like Trump; the trigger-happy know-nothing cowboy has done it again.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • #53
                  So ... Rogue? Just kind of tapped out of this one?


                  Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  Yes, as OBP noted, I asked a few:



                  That post and those questions led to something of a tangent but you did not address the questions, presented in the context of your claim that Democrat's "hatred for Trump" was leading them to "snub our service men and women".

                  Understanding that, along with the additional information that Republicans (many here!) were critical of Obama's decision to kill al-Awlaki and there was no call for a resolution to "honor the troops", are there answers? If the administration is, in fact, lying about its justification for ordering the assassination of Soleimani, isn't it plausible that this resolution -- crafted as a counter-measure to the resolution seeking to limit Trump's war-making ability RE: Iran -- is serving the ulterior motive of stigmatizing criticism?

                  And isn't that exactly how you're playing it out in this thread?

                  --Sam
                  "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    So ... Rogue? Just kind of tapped out of this one?
                    Let's see...
                    Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    Given SecDef Esper's admission today that he did not see any intelligence detailing the imminent threat to embassies that Trump has claimed as the justification for Soleimani's assassination (SecDef gets the PDB so if he didn't see it, it ain't there), do you have any sense of ambivalence about this rah-rah attitude?
                    What does that do with the Democrats unanimous decision to snub our service people?
                    Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    Were the Congress members who questioned the intelligence of an active WMD program in Iraq wrong to oppose what proved to be an immensely costly, ineffective, and destabilizing war? Were the people who tied an unwise military strategy to patriotism then right to do so?
                    What does that do with the Democrats unanimous decision to snub our service people?
                    Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    Isn't hatred of Democrats clouding your vision and keeping you from treating the administration's action, which currently appears to have been retaliatory and not preemptive (and therefore likely illegal), as an act of war to be honestly and scrupulously questioned rather than blindly cheered?
                    What does that do with the Democrats unanimous decision to snub our service people?

                    This was nothing but a feeble attempt to obfuscate and try to distract and deflect attention to the basic fact that the Democrats unanimously agreed to give a slap in the face to our service people. In their blind hatred of Trump they decided to use them as pawns to be exploited to feed that hatred.

                    And you wondered why I ignored you.

                    As for al-Awlaki... generally we try not to execute American citizens without at least affording them due process. When Obama did it probably wouldn't be a great idea to spotlight that fact.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      What does that do with the Democrats unanimous decision to snub our service people?
                      I don't want to get interrupt your conversation with Sam but I have a QQ if that's ok.

                      Every politician knows that snubbing the military is a dangerous move and they will likely be punished for it. Do you believe that the Democrats are just bad at politicking which is why they taking the foolish action of unnecessarily snubbing the military or could there be a more complicated explanation for their vote?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Let's see...
                        What does that do with the Democrats unanimous decision to snub our service people?
                        What does that do with the Democrats unanimous decision to snub our service people?
                        What does that do with the Democrats unanimous decision to snub our service people?

                        This was nothing but a feeble attempt to obfuscate and try to distract and deflect attention to the basic fact that the Democrats unanimously agreed to give a slap in the face to our service people. In their blind hatred of Trump they decided to use them as pawns to be exploited to feed that hatred.

                        And you wondered why I ignored you.

                        As for al-Awlaki... generally we try not to execute American citizens without at least affording them due process. When Obama did it probably wouldn't be a great idea to spotlight that fact.
                        No, I wasn't wondering -- it seemed pretty obvious at the time and is reinforced here:

                        You say that it wouldn't be a "great idea" to "spotlight the fact" that Obama made a controversial and potentially illegal decision to assassinate a terrorist ... right after saying that Trump's controversial and possibly illegal decision to assassinate a terrorist should be spotlighted by Congress. And that not doing so with Trump's decision is a "slap in the face" to the service people carrying out the attack but a prudent and acceptable course of action for Obama's decision, despite it being the same kind of operational force.

                        No, the underlying motivation there was clear as day.

                        --Sam
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          No, I wasn't wondering -- it seemed pretty obvious at the time and is reinforced here:

                          You say that it wouldn't be a "great idea" to "spotlight the fact" that Obama made a controversial and potentially illegal decision to assassinate a terrorist ... right after saying that Trump's controversial and possibly illegal decision to assassinate a terrorist should be spotlighted by Congress. And that not doing so with Trump's decision is a "slap in the face" to the service people carrying out the attack but a prudent and acceptable course of action for Obama's decision, despite it being the same kind of operational force.

                          No, the underlying motivation there was clear as day.

                          --Sam
                          For some (not so) strange reason you omitted the part where al-Awlaki is an American citizen (born in New Mexico) without the rights of due process being afforded so there is absolutely no question about it's illegality. The taking out of Soleimani is much more of a gray area with many reasons to say it was totally legal. For instance, something that is constantly, and determinedly ignored by those who say it was unlawful is a little thing called the Covert Action Statute (CAS) -- which also came into play during the raid that took out bin Laden in Pakistan.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                            I don't want to get interrupt your conversation with Sam but I have a QQ if that's ok.

                            Every politician knows that snubbing the military is a dangerous move and they will likely be punished for it. Do you believe that the Democrats are just bad at politicking which is why they taking the foolish action of unnecessarily snubbing the military or could there be a more complicated explanation for their vote?
                            In red jurisdictions it probably isn't much of a risk. Disrespecting law enforcement and or the military might even be considered a plus in some of them.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              00000000000000ab000-00aaam.jpg
                              'cuz it's totally different when the Obamessiah did it
                              and did it and did it and did it and did it etc.



                              As Obama once said: "Turns out I’m really good at killing people. Didn’t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine."

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                For some (not so) strange reason you omitted the part where al-Awlaki is an American citizen (born in New Mexico) without the rights of due process being afforded so there is absolutely no question about it's illegality. The taking out of Soleimani is much more of a gray area with many reasons to say it was totally legal. For instance, something that is constantly, and determinedly ignored by those who say it was unlawful is a little thing called the Covert Action Statute (CAS) -- which also came into play during the raid that took out bin Laden in Pakistan.
                                The Obama administration, actually, issued a legal memo grounding the legal justification for al-Awlaki's killing in the AUMF over a year before the strike. There absolutely was a question about the legality of the killing at the time, just as there's a question about the legality of Soleimani's killing now. The Trump administration, like the Obama administration before it, used the AUMF as justification ... but where the two diverge is that the Trump administration's claim of an imminent threat -- necessary for the legal groundwork -- has been shown to be false, at least as stated by Trump and Pompeo.

                                But this is all nit-picking for your original argument, which was that congressional resolutions like this are 1) typical and 2) about honoring the troops who conduct these attacks, irrespective of the political or legal questions around the order. You have made accusations that you prove by your equivocating to simply be partisan attacks ungrounded in a consistent concern for honoring service members.

                                --Sam
                                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                                Comment

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