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The blue-state exodus gains momentum

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    The tax code is written by rich politicians who look out for themselves.
    Who are paid off by lobbyist for the wealthy and the corporations to enact those codes.


    I think a number of us have expressed concern that we either doubt he's a Christian, or are not really convinced that he is.
    And, at the urging of your corrupt money worshipping evangelical leaders, you made your deal with the devil thinking that somehow the devil would do you right.


    I think you go too far with that "laughs at you rubes" nonsense. Are you really wanting an honest discussion, or is this simply your platform to express your extreme views?
    Yes, both sides go to far sometimes, but his point was true, Trump is no doubt laughing at you. That's why he said early on that he could shoot someone on 5th ave and wouldn't lose any support. He was telling you, his supporters, what he thought of you right off the bat.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      I have no idea. Depends on the percentage I guess. I was just throwing it out there. I am pretty happy with the system we have now too, but I just wish it were less.

      I am just against punishing people for being rich with excessive taxes. I think if you want to be "fair" you should try to be fair to everyone.
      No-one is talking about “punishing people for being rich with excessive taxes”, but that’s the reverse of what’s been happening under this government. Namely huge tax cuts for the wealthy and large corporations, which delivered huge benefits to rich investors and CEO's, whilst average middle and working-class people struggle to pay for rising health care and living costs.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        One of the reasons I'm for term limits. AND against people coming back to work as lobbyists. In fact, the whole lobbying thing is problematic.
        I'm skeptical of term limits but would like to see a 5 year waiting period after leaving government before you can be a lobbyist (kinda like a non-compete clause in some businesses) or a strict prohibition of lobbying anyone on any committee that you were on.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          Who are paid off by lobbyist for the wealthy and the corporations to enact those codes.
          Which is why I said I don't like the whole lobbying thing.

          And, at the urging of your corrupt money worshipping evangelical leaders,
          You know, Jim, you really do sound like an ignorant jackwagon when you talk like that, and I'm sure you're not.

          you made your deal with the devil thinking that somehow the devil would do you right.
          A) "Evangelical leaders" had ZERO influence on my vote - that's just stupid.
          2) This whole lobbying business was around LONG before Trump.

          Yes, both sides go to far sometimes, but his point was true, Trump is no doubt laughing at you.
          That's just idiotic. And he was man enough to backtrack on it.

          That's why he said early on that he could shoot someone on 5th ave and wouldn't lose any support. He was telling you, his supporters, what he thought of you right off the bat.
          Do you have a fever with these fits?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • As penance for what I wrote last night I'll try to do a little more to answer LPoT's questions to me.

            The reason I don't want to lay out what I think a "fair" system looks like is because the system of taxation we pursue is directed by the government and society we are pursuing. For example sin taxes both raise revenue and discourage behavior and taxing capital gains at a lower rate than income encourages investment in the slock market etc. You all know that I am quite liberal so my view of where I think society should go is probably quite different from yours in many ways. If I start laying out what my ideal society would look like (probably close to Warren's view) we'll get way off into the weeds on topics you feel very passionately about and which I have little interest in discussing.

            At minimum I think a fair system of taxation requires us to pay taxes in proportion to the benefit we derive from society. A progressive income tax system addresses this fairly as we can all earn smaller amounts of money with little taxes but the taxes go up as you make more. This is fair because it isn't possible for someone to make, say, $500k per year without a whole lot of societal infrastructure. That is, you will need a healthy, well educated population, just courts, police and military protection, effective regulations, and so on. Because you can make $10k per year in a society which lacks many of those features you should be taxed at a lower rate.

            Our current system, one way or the other, allows the people at the very very very top to amass huge amounts of wealth without paying for the infrastructure they relied on to get there. I make good money but only because I had access to the best schools in the world, top notch professors to learn from, ample grant money to pay for my living expenses while in grad school, and a society where people have enough money to afford the products my company produces. If I lived in a hellhole like Liberia I couldn't make $500k (I don't make that much ) in any legal or ethical manner.

            How do you tax someone like Bezos who makes money by (semi ethically) inflating Amazon's stock price with buybacks? I don't know. But he couldn't make the money he makes without society shouldering a huge burden to create the system where his rise is even possible. Why didn't he start Amazon in Liberia where the tax rate is probably close to 0%? Or Russia? Because those societies haven't done the quite expensive investment necessary to create the potential for an Amazon in the first place.

            I do think one solution for taxing the ultra wealthy is a wealth tax. When I initially heard Warren's suggestion of this I was appalled to be honest. It sounded fundamentally unAmerican to me. Then it was pointed out that property taxes are already a wealth tax and I changed my mind :).

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
              Doesn't sound very fair to me. Why should I pay more dollars just because I started a successful business or went to school for years while "you" (not you) just get high and mop floors?

              The intuition you rely on to conclude that a flat percentage is more fair is exactly the intuition I use to conclude that a graduated income tax is even more fair.

              We can either argue about why our arbitrary definitions of fairness is the right one or we can look at the practical needs to fund the government that we vote we want and figure out how to make that work.
              The graduated tax is fine too. I am just against setting punishingly high taxes against the rich. I think it would harm the economy in the long run. The rich would find ways to take their money off-shore, businesses would close down, unemployment would rise.


              Yeah, remember when our economy got sucked into oblivion in 2008? Why would people possibly be angry some rich [individuals] getting even more rich while causing that "recession" and no one going to jail?
              That was something different. It was a bunch of banks lending money to people who couldn't pay it back. Then they defaulted on the loans. And then Obama bailed the banks out of their debt.




              Can you turn off Fox or wherever you're getting the idea that any significant number of Americans think "being rich is evil itself"? You're characterizing a large group of people based on a very vocal minority. And I would bet you'd agree that many of those people still have a lot of growing up to do and would probably grow out of that phase after getting more life experience.
              OK we can agree on that much. But that vocal minority seems to have the ear of the country and the media.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                The graduated tax is fine too. I am just against setting punishingly high taxes against the rich. I think it would harm the economy in the long run. The rich would find ways to take their money off-shore, businesses would close down, unemployment would rise.....
                Hence, the luxury (yacht) tax that sent shipbuilders offshore and didn't accomplish anything relative to more revenue.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  No-one is talking about “punishing people for being rich with excessive taxes”, but that’s the reverse of what’s been happening under this government. Namely huge tax cuts for the wealthy and large corporations, which delivered huge benefits to rich investors and CEO's, whilst average middle and working-class people struggle to pay for rising health care and living costs.
                  What would you know about how we are affected by the tax cuts here in the USA? You are in Australia.

                  The tax cuts affected middle class more than anyone else Tassman. We have been over it before. Since Trump has been President, I have gotten a "raise" from the tax breaks and cuts, actual raises from my company along with profit sharing since they have done so well, and my 401K has doubled. And I am definitely in the middle of the middle class. Oh and my home value has increased about 30% too.

                  So those "huge tax breaks" for corporations have benefited me and the rest of us too.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    What would you know about how we are affected by the tax cuts here in the USA? You are in Australia.

                    The tax cuts affected middle class more than anyone else Tassman. We have been over it before. Since Trump has been President, I have gotten a "raise" from the tax breaks and cuts, actual raises from my company along with profit sharing since they have done so well, and my 401K has doubled. And I am definitely in the middle of the middle class. Oh and my home value has increased about 30% too.

                    So those "huge tax breaks" for corporations have benefited me and the rest of us too.
                    But if they benefit the rich at all, they have to be evil.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      The graduated tax is fine too. I am just against setting punishingly high taxes against the rich. I think it would harm the economy in the long run. The rich would find ways to take their money off-shore, businesses would close down, unemployment would rise.
                      In California we raised taxes on the rich *and that didn't happen*!


                      That was something different. It was a bunch of banks lending money to people who couldn't pay it back. Then they defaulted on the loans. And then Obama bailed the banks out of their debt.
                      There was outright fraud by the rating agencies where they rated absolute junk as solid gold.


                      OK we can agree on that much. But that vocal minority seems to have the ear of the country and the media.
                      Divide et impera. Our enemies want those voices to be the loudest so we are at each others' throats instead of coming together as Americans on the vast majority of issues were we agree. Who benefits from a country as divided as it is? Those who want a weak America and those who want to rob us blind while we aren't watching. They want us paralyzed with mutual distrust and unable to stop them. Don't believe me? Why do we have a $1 trillion deficit during an indisputably strong economy?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        So those "huge tax breaks" for corporations have benefited me and the rest of us too.
                        And they benefitted the ultra rich far in excess of what you got from it. And many of the benefits to the middle class will go away within 8 years whereas the benefits to the ultra rich are permanent.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                          In California we raised taxes on the rich *and that didn't happen*!
                          How do you know that?
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            How do you know that?
                            Here is an article explaining that, while there was an increase in the rich leaving the state, it remains fairly small. And those who still earn money in California will continue to pay taxes regardless. California has run a budget surplus for years thanks to its high taxes despite offering very generous government services (e.g. extra ACA subsidies).

                            Don't take this to mean I think the rich are an infinite piggy bank because I don't. But I am sick to death of hearing this threat that the rich will flee high taxes over and over.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                              Here is an article explaining that, while there was an increase in the rich leaving the state, it remains fairly small.
                              So, you wish to revise and extend your previous remarks?
                              Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                              In California we raised taxes on the rich *and that didn't happen*!

                              And what you cite is a Newspaper article disputing another Newspaper article.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                So, you wish to revise and extend your previous remarks?
                                Here is what I said didn't happen


                                The rich would find ways to take their money off-shore, businesses would close down, unemployment would rise.


                                But I can amend what I said to say that raising taxes on the right appears to be a net win overall.

                                And what you cite is a Newspaper article disputing another Newspaper article.
                                It's putting the WSJ conclusions in proper context. Regardless so far California is continuing to run a budget surplus unlike states which cut taxes to the bone like Kansas (I know they raised taxes finally so maybe it's not as bad as it used to be).

                                I'm a computer scientist not an economist or political scientist.

                                Comment

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