Originally posted by Tassman
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI mean trying to change the country to socialism. And it is not just the fringes of liberalism. We have a few congresspeople who are promoting this nonsense. Sound like you are the one living the sheltered life here.
If I'm sheltered then help enlighten me. That's what I'm here for.
I disagree with it. It is a convenient scapegoat that liberals use to brand white people as racist. The whole idea itself it racist.
No Russia hasn't. They posted a few ads on facebook. The extreme liberals are the ones dividing the country and it has been going on for decades.
Good for you. Keep drinking the koolaid and remain part of the problem.
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Originally posted by DivineOb View PostYou assert that the middle class benefited more than the rich. I intuitively feel that that is false. How do we bridge this gap?
Who benefits more from a strong military? A member of the middle class or someone with lots of assets to protect?
Comparing Mexico to Liberia is a bit uncharitable :). And Carlos Slim made his money off of infrastructure (phones) which was paid for by tax payers and defended by the Mexico military. I don't know his history so maybe you can enlighten me further if I'm wrong about that.
Historically human societies have had a handful of elite, that had most of the resources and power and everyone else. The middle class is a mostly modern invention while the really rich and ultra poor, is a human invention that is far older.
If anything, the middle class owes its existence to the things you list out. Now the rise of the extremely wealthy businessman has much to do with the things you mention, but the major wealth generators merely went from the nobility of old to the businessmen of new, but wealthy people is nothing new.
I doubt any single worker saw their net worth increase by anywhere close to a similar percentage to what Bezos saw. Sounds like he benefited more.
Who gets the bill? The property owner. Property taxes are a wealth tax on people who own property. Just because I pay rent doesn't mean I get to own part of the property even though I'm funding the mortgage payment."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by DivineOb View PostWe have a few congresspeople on the right promoting outright racist and white supremacy. Should I paint your entire party with that brush? I have no idea what you mean when you say Democrats want to turn the country "to socialism."
If I'm sheltered then help enlighten me. That's what I'm here for.
Then people are using it wrong. At least according to how I understand it. Bludgeoning someone with "you're a racist even if you won't admit it" won't change any minds.
If I could show you that they did far more than that would it change your mind?
Watch this video. It's spooky how prescient it is.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostTassman, you are reading articles that confirm your bias.
My link was from "The United States House Committee on the Budget, commonly known as the House Budget Committee, which is a standing committee of the United States House of Representatives". Wiki. Any perceived bias is that of the duly elected members of the House of Representatives. In short, the majority of the population.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostLooking at history. Historically, society was a hand full of rich elites and everyone else. Does the same hold true today?
Not having to worry about an invading army destroying my house and neighborhood is rather nice.
Remember, a family was murdered down in Mexico and the government had to release a prisoner or face a small army taking him by force. Mexico is falling apart, but the point I am making is:
Historically human societies have had a handful of elite, that had most of the resources and power and everyone else. The middle class is a mostly modern invention while the really rich and ultra poor, is a human invention that is far older.
If anything, the middle class owes its existence to the things you list out. Now the rise of the extremely wealthy businessman has much to do with the things you mention, but the major wealth generators merely went from the nobility of old to the businessmen of new, but wealthy people is nothing new.
And like I said, that’s an opinion but considering that most people are totally dependent on these companies to hire them, sounds like a mutually beneficial relationship to both parties.
As an extreme example, if I own everything in the entire country I can offer nothing more than table scraps as payment for work and people will be lining up. Surely you'd agree that that is mutually beneficial but hardly equally beneficial.
The property owner merely charges enough in rent to cover the property taxes.
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Originally posted by DivineOb View PostSeems to be in most societies . Do you agree that we should seek to close the gap between the rich and the poor (leaving aside how that is accomplished)?
Absolutely. Isn't it nicer to not have to worry about an army destroying your Mansion, vacation homes, yachts, factories, and warehouses? Shouldn't you pay more for that protection since you're getting more?
How is this not an is ought fallacy? Shouldn't we seek to attain the best of all possible worlds? Wouldn't you agree that the best of all possible worlds would tend to have a narrow or moderate gap between the rich and the poor rather than an extreme one line Russia?
Of course it's mutually beneficial. That doesn't demonstrate that it is *equally* beneficial like you and Sparko are claiming or at least implying.
2 smartphones
4 tablets
2 smart TV’s
2 laptops
6 game systems
This represents thousands of times more computing power than existed on the entire planet in 1969. Historically speaking, looks like we’re benefiting rather well.
As an extreme example, if I own everything in the entire country I can offer nothing more than table scraps as payment for work and people will be lining up. Surely you'd agree that that is mutually beneficial but hardly equally beneficial.
And? Who writes the check to the county? Is the renter "paying" for everything the landlord uses the rent for? Or just this one item?"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostIt will never happen because the very nature of people makes it impossible. Even if you took every last dime and evenly distributed it among the population, you’d end up with how things are now, in a few years, because some people are great with money and others can’t hold onto it if you sewed it in their pants.
That’s an opinion, but rich people would be better able to buy protection for their assets vs the rest of us so I don’t think that is an opinion that really holds out.
Not having to worry about an invading army destroying my house and neighborhood is rather nice.
As an example of the benefits that the middle class gets from tax dollars. I pointed out that the rich get those benefits and then some.
There’s all kinds of things that would be nice,
Since you have not established a universal standard, this is again an opinion.
[/QUOTE]
I agree that humanity overall creates greater comfort for us all. What does that have to do with how we tax the rich? Just because I didn't die of dysentery at 8 doesn't mean the rich should not have to pay their fair share.
Extreme examples only highlight the weakness of your own position.
We are some of the most spoiled, pampered people, in human history.
A good landlord is going to factor in taxes into the rent and it’s simply silliness for a renter not to realize that a raise in property taxes is going to raise their rent.
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Originally posted by DivineOb View PostSorry, I meant "close" in the sense of *narrow* the gap.
I'm lost. You said
Not having to worry about an invading army destroying my house and neighborhood is rather nice.
As an example of the benefits that the middle class gets from tax dollars. I pointed out that the rich get those benefits and then some.
So you *disagree* that we should seek to move the country towards the best of all possible worlds?
I agree that humanity overall creates greater comfort for us all. What does that have to do with how we tax the rich? Just because I didn't die of dysentery at 8 doesn't mean the rich should not have to pay their fair share.
No, it illustrates the absurdity of your position that, if both sides benefit they both benefit equally.
What does this have to do with taxation of the rich? I could point out that they are living so much better than in the past too (as per your Rockefeller example above).
I just can't shake the feeling that you are arguing for the sake of arguing on this point. All just to avoid admitting that property taxes are a form of wealth tax geared towards paying the *extra* expenses required to protect and service someone's property. If the landlord doesn't pay his property taxes who gets in trouble? The landlord or the tenant? Who gets a lien on the property? That tells you all you need to know."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostThe gap will naturally narrow and widen as times goes on, why do we need to artificially lower it?
And as I pointed out, the rich guy will have a far easier time paying for security than I would, so I benefit rather well from not having to pay to protect my house or be there to protect it myself.
The Russian communist had that dream over 100 years ago, how well did it turn out? We can dream all we want, but we must live in reality.
You have yet to establish an objective way to define ‘fair share’ so how do you know they are not already paying ‘their fair share’?
No it doesn’t because your position highlights a state owned economy, not what we actually have. The system you highlighted, is ironically, the system opposite of mine because if one person owns everything and everyone else nothing, there is no innovation and dwindling returns. It is the exact opposite capitalist system I highlight and more of a socialist, state owns everything, system which only highlights that you still don’t understand what I advocate for.
To highlight that we seem to be doing just fine, even without ‘being as fair’ as your opinion says.
I haven’t avoided anything because you’re highlight short term thinking so many people engage in. Everyone pays property taxes, rather it’s getting your car tags, paying an escrow, sending a check to the government, or paying rent. Only a fool thinks they are ‘sticking it to the rich’ by raising property taxes because they just raised their rent! Why are you not getting that point?
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostAnd you're not?
My link was from "The United States House Committee on the Budget, commonly known as the House Budget Committee, which is a standing committee of the United States House of Representatives". Wiki. Any perceived bias is that of the duly elected members of the House of Representatives. In short, the majority of the population.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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