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The blue-state exodus gains momentum

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    They haven't in fact. "One year after President Trump and congressional Republicans enacted their tax cut for the wealthy and large corporations, none of their promised results are happening. While the law spurred a brief boost in economic growth, our long-term growth trajectory is unchanged. There is no sign of an investment boom. Real wage growth for workers remains modest. Factories and jobs are more likely to go overseas. The federal deficit is soaring as corporate tax receipts plummet. And the tax code is riddled with even more special-interest tax breaks and loopholes. By any measure, there is no evidence showing that the GOP tax cut is trickling down to working Americans'.

    https://budget.house.gov/publication...orations-while
    Tassman, you are reading articles that confirm your bias. The rest of us are here in the USA, living here in the economy and working for a living. We know what is happening because we are living it. You can quote as many liberal articles as you want. It isn't reality.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      I mean trying to change the country to socialism. And it is not just the fringes of liberalism. We have a few congresspeople who are promoting this nonsense. Sound like you are the one living the sheltered life here.
      We have a few congresspeople on the right promoting outright racist and white supremacy. Should I paint your entire party with that brush? I have no idea what you mean when you say Democrats want to turn the country "to socialism."

      If I'm sheltered then help enlighten me. That's what I'm here for.


      I disagree with it. It is a convenient scapegoat that liberals use to brand white people as racist. The whole idea itself it racist.
      Then people are using it wrong. At least according to how I understand it. Bludgeoning someone with "you're a racist even if you won't admit it" won't change any minds.


      No Russia hasn't. They posted a few ads on facebook. The extreme liberals are the ones dividing the country and it has been going on for decades.
      If I could show you that they did far more than that would it change your mind?


      Good for you. Keep drinking the koolaid and remain part of the problem.
      That seems a bit rude and uncalled for. If you don't want to talk with me then don't reply.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
        You assert that the middle class benefited more than the rich. I intuitively feel that that is false. How do we bridge this gap?
        Looking at history. Historically, society was a hand full of rich elites and everyone else. Does the same hold true today?

        Who benefits more from a strong military? A member of the middle class or someone with lots of assets to protect?
        Not having to worry about an invading army destroying my house and neighborhood is rather nice.

        Comparing Mexico to Liberia is a bit uncharitable :). And Carlos Slim made his money off of infrastructure (phones) which was paid for by tax payers and defended by the Mexico military. I don't know his history so maybe you can enlighten me further if I'm wrong about that.
        Remember, a family was murdered down in Mexico and the government had to release a prisoner or face a small army taking him by force. Mexico is falling apart, but the point I am making is:

        Historically human societies have had a handful of elite, that had most of the resources and power and everyone else. The middle class is a mostly modern invention while the really rich and ultra poor, is a human invention that is far older.

        If anything, the middle class owes its existence to the things you list out. Now the rise of the extremely wealthy businessman has much to do with the things you mention, but the major wealth generators merely went from the nobility of old to the businessmen of new, but wealthy people is nothing new.

        I doubt any single worker saw their net worth increase by anywhere close to a similar percentage to what Bezos saw. Sounds like he benefited more.
        And like I said, that’s an opinion but considering that most people are totally dependent on these companies to hire them, sounds like a mutually beneficial relationship to both parties.

        Who gets the bill? The property owner. Property taxes are a wealth tax on people who own property. Just because I pay rent doesn't mean I get to own part of the property even though I'm funding the mortgage payment.
        The property owner merely charges enough in rent to cover the property taxes.
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
          We have a few congresspeople on the right promoting outright racist and white supremacy. Should I paint your entire party with that brush? I have no idea what you mean when you say Democrats want to turn the country "to socialism."

          If I'm sheltered then help enlighten me. That's what I'm here for.
          The whole Green New Deal for example. Basically handing industry over to the government in the name of "saving the planet" - socialized healthcare for another. Basic income for another.


          Then people are using it wrong. At least according to how I understand it. Bludgeoning someone with "you're a racist even if you won't admit it" won't change any minds.
          It is all part of "intersectionality" where different groups are rated by how much of a victim they are or how much privilege that they have. It's almost like a point system. Woman are victims but Blacks are more victimized and so if you are a black woman, you trump both blacks and women and so on for being victimized by society. And at the Top of the vicimizer list is White Men. And no that whole idea wasn't promoted by russians.




          If I could show you that they did far more than that would it change your mind?
          Go right ahead. I think the Russians DID contribute to liberals being so extreme but not current Russians. The Russians from the USSR back in the 1980s. They basically brainwashed the youth back then, who became the professors of today who are teaching it to our kids.
          Watch this video. It's spooky how prescient it is.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Tassman, you are reading articles that confirm your bias.
            And you're not?

            My link was from "The United States House Committee on the Budget, commonly known as the House Budget Committee, which is a standing committee of the United States House of Representatives". Wiki. Any perceived bias is that of the duly elected members of the House of Representatives. In short, the majority of the population.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              Looking at history. Historically, society was a hand full of rich elites and everyone else. Does the same hold true today?
              Seems to be in most societies . Do you agree that we should seek to close the gap between the rich and the poor (leaving aside how that is accomplished)?


              Not having to worry about an invading army destroying my house and neighborhood is rather nice.
              Absolutely. Isn't it nicer to not have to worry about an army destroying your Mansion, vacation homes, yachts, factories, and warehouses? Shouldn't you pay more for that protection since you're getting more?



              Remember, a family was murdered down in Mexico and the government had to release a prisoner or face a small army taking him by force. Mexico is falling apart, but the point I am making is:

              Historically human societies have had a handful of elite, that had most of the resources and power and everyone else. The middle class is a mostly modern invention while the really rich and ultra poor, is a human invention that is far older.

              If anything, the middle class owes its existence to the things you list out. Now the rise of the extremely wealthy businessman has much to do with the things you mention, but the major wealth generators merely went from the nobility of old to the businessmen of new, but wealthy people is nothing new.
              How is this not an is ought fallacy? Shouldn't we seek to attain the best of all possible worlds? Wouldn't you agree that the best of all possible worlds would tend to have a narrow or moderate gap between the rich and the poor rather than an extreme one line Russia?


              And like I said, that’s an opinion but considering that most people are totally dependent on these companies to hire them, sounds like a mutually beneficial relationship to both parties.
              Of course it's mutually beneficial. That doesn't demonstrate that it is *equally* beneficial like you and Sparko are claiming or at least implying.

              As an extreme example, if I own everything in the entire country I can offer nothing more than table scraps as payment for work and people will be lining up. Surely you'd agree that that is mutually beneficial but hardly equally beneficial.


              The property owner merely charges enough in rent to cover the property taxes.
              And? Who writes the check to the county? Is the renter "paying" for everything the landlord uses the rent for? Or just this one item?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                Seems to be in most societies . Do you agree that we should seek to close the gap between the rich and the poor (leaving aside how that is accomplished)?
                It will never happen because the very nature of people makes it impossible. Even if you took every last dime and evenly distributed it among the population, you’d end up with how things are now, in a few years, because some people are great with money and others can’t hold onto it if you sewed it in their pants.

                Absolutely. Isn't it nicer to not have to worry about an army destroying your Mansion, vacation homes, yachts, factories, and warehouses? Shouldn't you pay more for that protection since you're getting more?
                That’s an opinion, but rich people would be better able to buy protection for their assets vs the rest of us so I don’t think that is an opinion that really holds out.

                How is this not an is ought fallacy? Shouldn't we seek to attain the best of all possible worlds? Wouldn't you agree that the best of all possible worlds would tend to have a narrow or moderate gap between the rich and the poor rather than an extreme one line Russia?
                There’s all kinds of things that would be nice, but I think I would rather live in modern Russia than much of the third world, but as I have pointed out above, you’ll never reach your perfect world because some people are terrible with money and some are not. Some people can’t hold onto money and some can. You will never eliminate this gap.

                Of course it's mutually beneficial. That doesn't demonstrate that it is *equally* beneficial like you and Sparko are claiming or at least implying.
                Since you have not established a universal standard, this is again an opinion. As I pointed out though, most of human history is filled with extreme gaps between the poor and rich, with very little in between. Modern inventions brought innovations into our lives and raised the living standards for a much larger part of the population. We live in far more comfort today than J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller, etc lived a century before. Like I said, looks like it has worked out pretty good for much of the population. In our house there’s:

                2 smartphones
                4 tablets
                2 smart TV’s
                2 laptops
                6 game systems

                This represents thousands of times more computing power than existed on the entire planet in 1969. Historically speaking, looks like we’re benefiting rather well.

                As an extreme example, if I own everything in the entire country I can offer nothing more than table scraps as payment for work and people will be lining up. Surely you'd agree that that is mutually beneficial but hardly equally beneficial.
                Extreme examples only highlight the weakness of your own position. Americans are hardly starving with obesity being the biggest health problem among our population. When is the last time you bathed in a wash bin? How about having to walk 5 miles into town because you can’t afford the gas? I took a history of the dust bowel era from my great grandmother, who lived through it, nearly a century ago, and I will assure you that you have no idea what poor is. In fact, most Americans really don’t because the generation that did, are all dying off. We are some of the most spoiled, pampered people, in human history.

                And? Who writes the check to the county? Is the renter "paying" for everything the landlord uses the rent for? Or just this one item?
                A good landlord is going to factor in taxes into the rent and it’s simply silliness for a renter not to realize that a raise in property taxes is going to raise their rent.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  It will never happen because the very nature of people makes it impossible. Even if you took every last dime and evenly distributed it among the population, you’d end up with how things are now, in a few years, because some people are great with money and others can’t hold onto it if you sewed it in their pants.
                  Sorry, I meant "close" in the sense of *narrow* the gap.


                  That’s an opinion, but rich people would be better able to buy protection for their assets vs the rest of us so I don’t think that is an opinion that really holds out.
                  I'm lost. You said


                  Not having to worry about an invading army destroying my house and neighborhood is rather nice.


                  As an example of the benefits that the middle class gets from tax dollars. I pointed out that the rich get those benefits and then some.


                  There’s all kinds of things that would be nice,
                  So you *disagree* that we should seek to move the country towards the best of all possible worlds?


                  Since you have not established a universal standard, this is again an opinion.
                  Like I said, looks like it has worked out pretty good for much of the population. In our house there’s:

                  [/QUOTE]

                  I agree that humanity overall creates greater comfort for us all. What does that have to do with how we tax the rich? Just because I didn't die of dysentery at 8 doesn't mean the rich should not have to pay their fair share.


                  Extreme examples only highlight the weakness of your own position.
                  No, it illustrates the absurdity of your position that, if both sides benefit they both benefit equally.


                  We are some of the most spoiled, pampered people, in human history.
                  What does this have to do with taxation of the rich? I could point out that they are living so much better than in the past too (as per your Rockefeller example above).


                  A good landlord is going to factor in taxes into the rent and it’s simply silliness for a renter not to realize that a raise in property taxes is going to raise their rent.
                  I just can't shake the feeling that you are arguing for the sake of arguing on this point. All just to avoid admitting that property taxes are a form of wealth tax geared towards paying the *extra* expenses required to protect and service someone's property. If the landlord doesn't pay his property taxes who gets in trouble? The landlord or the tenant? Who gets a lien on the property? That tells you all you need to know.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                    Sorry, I meant "close" in the sense of *narrow* the gap.
                    The gap will naturally narrow and widen as times goes on, why do we need to artificially lower it?

                    I'm lost. You said


                    Not having to worry about an invading army destroying my house and neighborhood is rather nice.


                    As an example of the benefits that the middle class gets from tax dollars. I pointed out that the rich get those benefits and then some.
                    And as I pointed out, the rich guy will have a far easier time paying for security than I would, so I benefit rather well from not having to pay to protect my house or be there to protect it myself.

                    So you *disagree* that we should seek to move the country towards the best of all possible worlds?
                    The Russian communist had that dream over 100 years ago, how well did it turn out? We can dream all we want, but we must live in reality.

                    I agree that humanity overall creates greater comfort for us all. What does that have to do with how we tax the rich? Just because I didn't die of dysentery at 8 doesn't mean the rich should not have to pay their fair share.
                    You have yet to establish an objective way to define ‘fair share’ so how do you know they are not already paying ‘their fair share’?

                    No, it illustrates the absurdity of your position that, if both sides benefit they both benefit equally.
                    No it doesn’t because your position highlights a state owned economy, not what we actually have. The system you highlighted, is ironically, the system opposite of mine because if one person owns everything and everyone else nothing, there is no innovation and dwindling returns. It is the exact opposite capitalist system I highlight and more of a socialist, state owns everything, system which only highlights that you still don’t understand what I advocate for.

                    What does this have to do with taxation of the rich? I could point out that they are living so much better than in the past too (as per your Rockefeller example above).
                    To highlight that we seem to be doing just fine, even without ‘being as fair’ as your opinion says.

                    I just can't shake the feeling that you are arguing for the sake of arguing on this point. All just to avoid admitting that property taxes are a form of wealth tax geared towards paying the *extra* expenses required to protect and service someone's property. If the landlord doesn't pay his property taxes who gets in trouble? The landlord or the tenant? Who gets a lien on the property? That tells you all you need to know.
                    I haven’t avoided anything because you’re highlight short term thinking so many people engage in. Everyone pays property taxes, rather it’s getting your car tags, paying an escrow, sending a check to the government, or paying rent. Only a fool thinks they are ‘sticking it to the rich’ by raising property taxes because they just raised their rent! Why are you not getting that point?
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      The gap will naturally narrow and widen as times goes on, why do we need to artificially lower it?
                      Government is an artificial construct. Anything it does or touches is 'artificial'. That's not an escape hatch to answering my question.


                      And as I pointed out, the rich guy will have a far easier time paying for security than I would, so I benefit rather well from not having to pay to protect my house or be there to protect it myself.
                      But the rich lady *still* gets the benefits! Why shouldn't she pay for it because she could, theoretically, pay it herself? She's still not paying for the full cost of the benefits she derives!


                      The Russian communist had that dream over 100 years ago, how well did it turn out? We can dream all we want, but we must live in reality.
                      Should government seek to move us towards a better state of affairs, the same state of affairs, or a worse state of affairs?


                      You have yet to establish an objective way to define ‘fair share’ so how do you know they are not already paying ‘their fair share’?
                      Because they are paying *less* that people making 1000x+ less than them despite getting a greater number of benefits! If you think that's fair then this conversation is over.


                      No it doesn’t because your position highlights a state owned economy, not what we actually have. The system you highlighted, is ironically, the system opposite of mine because if one person owns everything and everyone else nothing, there is no innovation and dwindling returns. It is the exact opposite capitalist system I highlight and more of a socialist, state owns everything, system which only highlights that you still don’t understand what I advocate for.
                      Do you know what a "thought experiment" and "Reductio ad absurdum" is?


                      To highlight that we seem to be doing just fine, even without ‘being as fair’ as your opinion says.
                      "That's just like, your opinion, man."


                      I haven’t avoided anything because you’re highlight short term thinking so many people engage in. Everyone pays property taxes, rather it’s getting your car tags, paying an escrow, sending a check to the government, or paying rent. Only a fool thinks they are ‘sticking it to the rich’ by raising property taxes because they just raised their rent! Why are you not getting that point?
                      My point is very simple. The property owner is responsible for the property taxes. As in, they are the one who has to pay them and will be punished if they don't. Do you agree with this or not? Directly answer this question with a yes or a no and if no explain why not.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        And you're not?
                        No, I am not. I am LIVING in it. The economy affects me every day. And I am doing great. The company I work for is doing great. My friends are doing great. My dog is even doing great.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          And you're not?

                          My link was from "The United States House Committee on the Budget, commonly known as the House Budget Committee, which is a standing committee of the United States House of Representatives". Wiki. Any perceived bias is that of the duly elected members of the House of Representatives. In short, the majority of the population.
                          Thank you for showcasing your extreme ignorance here. The House Committee on the Budget would, as you noted, be controlled by the House of Representative which currently controlled by the Democrats. Less than a third of Americans identify as Democrat. So no, it does not represent the will of the majority of the people.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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