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Warren vs Sanders

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Wow that looks pretty close across the board. That small of a percentage is within any margin of error. Looks like Trump is still a contender despite all of this impeachment nonsense.
    MoE is 2.6% in that graph.

    Comment


    • #32
      Disclaimer: I really don't know what I'm talking about and am mostly going with my gut. I'm a computer scientist not a political scientist. Don't bite me :).

      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      Um... if you'd asked be last week I would have said a Sanders/Warren ticket was the best possible ticket, both to maximize the chances of Dem victory and for the future of the country. Though Warren's antics this week have reminded me she's not very good at politics.
      I follow Rick Wilson and Tom Nichols on Twitter (true never Trump conservatives from day 1 who have made it their mission to vote against Republicans across the board because the party has become irredemable). Rick Wilson won a lot of elections for Republicans in the decades he was doing their dirty work. I don't believe what he says blindly but on this I believe him.

      And I don't want to get into who started the fight first. It's mutually assured destruction so neither is going to get the nomination unless they both bury the hatchet right quick.

      Let me ask this. When Obama chose Biden as his VP it was clear what Biden was bringing to the table. In a Warren / Sanders pairing what votes will that VP selection actually bring that a person of color (Harris / Abrams), or a young voice (Buttigieg / Beto) wouldn't capture more of (sucky sentence but I think you get it).


      I have literally no clue what you're talking about.

      He ran against Clinton... that's called a primary, not backstabbing. Then he supported Clinton after he lost and campaigned vigorously for her, that's called being a good loser and unselfishly putting the party first, not backstabbing.
      There's an adage about why Republicans win despite there being fewer of them and their policies sucking: "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line." There is a gracious way to admit defeat once the battle is clearly lost and a gracious way to behave at the Convention. In both cases Bernie and his supporters did the opposite. I was a hardcore Bernie supporter back then and thought that stuff was great. And then we lost the election, got nothing we wanted, and I started to have second thoughts.


      So are Sanders and Trump, but only Trump and Biden appear to be losing their marbles.
      That's unfair to Biden. Trump clearly has the signs of dementia and they are accelerating. Nothing on par with Biden. Biden's best days are possibly behind him which is why I'd insist on only serving a single term.


      I wish she had gone all in on Medicare for all. She seems to have some sort of overcomplicated position of liking medicare for all but liking obamacare too. Polling shows medicare for all is a massively popular policy and I think she would have done better to have stuck with it rather than backing out of it.
      I agree Medicare is popular and very efficient. Telling people they will be forced out of their private insurance into a government program is not going to sell to most voters. To be selfish for a moment it doesn't even really sell to me because I have very good insurance through my employer.

      I was hoping for something more like this after having a bleeding heart attack.


      At 72, McCain would have been the oldest president if elected, and there were issues related to his past treatment for melanoma and his experience as a prisoner of war. McCain dealt with the concerns with his characteristic candor. The Arizona senator made 1,173 pages of his medical records available to the media, setting a standard for accessibility and transparency.


      Well here's a poll from Florida this week:
      Don't take this as dismissive but we need to see a consistent series of polls like that. I have a hard time believing the old timers in Florida will prefer a "socialist" (I know he's not really one) over Biden but if polls track that then I'll admit that Bernie has more of a shot than I thought.


      Fox News will rabidly spout it's propaganda and lie to its audience about Dems regardless of what Dems do. I think it's lunacy to try to pander to them. Avoiding standing up for Dem values just because Fox News would love to make hay of it, is self-defeating.
      I hear that argument. If we lose in 2020 America will never recover (the damage is already severe). After seeing what happened in the UK even when staring down the barrel of Brexit (not a perfect analog) I'm losing my appetite for pushing values which are out of touch with most of the country. We need to win, changes the laws to prevent Republican cheating, and then move left in 2024 IMO.


      Sanders wins by miles in the rust belt because the voters there are really anti-NAFTA compared to the rest of the country and blame it for causing the massive job losses they've seen in recent decades. They went to Trump over Hillary because he was anti-trade-agreements and she was pro-trade-agreements. Bernie has a long history of being anti-NAFTA and other big trade agreements and does well with voters in those areas as a result.
      People who can be swayed to believing that Trump cares about them in the slightest will be swayed to believe that Sanders will come for your everything and give it to big government. Clearly they don't know how to vote in their best interest to start with.

      It's not zero sum. The primaries come before the general, so both happen.
      We need bodies in seats in Congress first and foremost. Once we pass enough laws to prevent further Republican cheating we can fight it out. Until then the only issue is to win. Every bit of energy spent on purity contests until that happens is a waste. Every negative word said about another Democrat will be weaponized to maximum effect by Republicans (Russia)


      If, in the primaries, candidates who excite the voters more get elected, they are more likely to bring more energy to the general and be able to fundraise more from people. AOC's busy breaking fundraising records because people love her enthusiasm and strong standing up for Dem views. It's allowed her to both fundraise and donate a lot more than a normal congressperson would to support other Dem candidates. Far better to have new blood that excites the voting base and gets people activated, donating, and voting, and thus win elections, than to stick with the tried-and-failed career politicians who lost to Trump and who haven't had a new idea that excites potential Dem voters in 20 years, and thus have a repeat of 2016.
      I take your argument. If the youth start voting like the old timers do I'll change my tune. Until they show up at the polls their enthusiasm is worth less than nothing.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Every indication is that Bernie supporters won't stand for him getting cheated out of the nomination a second time.
        Aside from the political pluses, another delectable side effect of all this is how much credibility CNN is losing because of this stunt.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
          There's an adage about why Republicans win despite there being fewer of them and their policies sucking: "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line." There is a gracious way to admit defeat once the battle is clearly lost and a gracious way to behave at the Convention. In both cases Bernie and his supporters did the opposite.
          Huh? If anything it seemed like Bernie Sanders was bending over backwards to support Hillary even after it was public that the DNC screwed him over. What exactly are your examples of Bernie "doing the opposite" of being gracious at the Convention?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
            Huh? If anything it seemed like Bernie Sanders was bending over backwards to support Hillary even after it was public that the DNC screwed him over. What exactly are your examples of Bernie "doing the opposite" of being gracious at the Convention?
            I believe Bernie said it, I'm surprised, and he should have just fessed up, but not a big deal, that was his opinion concerning the electorate at the time. But so what, I think it's a mole hill.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              I believe Bernie said it, I'm surprised, and he should have just fessed up, but not a big deal, that was his opinion concerning the electorate at the time. But so what, I think it's a mole hill.
              That's interesting, but what does it have to do with what I said?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                That's interesting, but what does it have to do with what I said?
                Good point. Nothing.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  I believe Bernie said it, I'm surprised, and he should have just fessed up, but not a big deal, that was his opinion concerning the electorate at the time. But so what, I think it's a mole hill.
                  A molehill of potential disenfranchised no-voters or even switch voters out of spite.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                    I take your argument. If the youth start voting like the old timers do I'll change my tune. Until they show up at the polls their enthusiasm is worth less than nothing.
                    I believe the 2020 election will have a record number of voters which seems to favour democrats. I’m obviously no expert in American politics but people like Sanders, Warren and AOC seem to have inspired a strong foundation for progressives particularly in the younger population even in the deep red states.

                    Their ‘radical’ policies aren’t some far fetched ideas, they’re policies that have been successfully implemented in many countries around the world and has improved the quality of life for their general population and the US is finally starting to notice that they have fallen behind most of the developed world. There’s no perfect system but there always comes a time when the benefit of society needs to be prioritised over the individual and whether or not Sanders or Warren win 2020, the progressive era in US politics seems to be coming soon.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      A molehill of potential disenfranchised no-voters or even switch voters out of spite.
                      I doubt that very much, sean. They are nearly mirror images of each other ideologically, both loved by the progressives, and they are friends to boot. Progressives would be happy with either one of them as the nominee. And so would they.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        I doubt that very much, sean. They are nearly mirror images of each other ideologically, both loved by the progressives, and they are friends to boot. Progressives would be happy with either one of them as the nominee. And so would they.
                        That's not the impression I got from TYT's analysis of it. And I believe WarrenIsASnake was trending on twitter.

                        And you're also assuming either of those candidates will be nominated. There's an impeachment thing going on, remember? This will probably hinder both Sanders and Warren's campaign efforts during the Iowa caucus. I believe it'll be bad enough for the DNC if either of those two are chosen over the other, but if someone like Biden or Pete is chosen instead... whoa nelly.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                          Huh? If anything it seemed like Bernie Sanders was bending over backwards to support Hillary even after it was public that the DNC screwed him over. What exactly are your examples of Bernie "doing the opposite" of being gracious at the Convention?
                          Yes, the DNC screwed over Sanders. I agree 100% on that. If that hadn't happened I assume she likely would have won the election since even a tiny fraction of his followers, who either didn't vote or voted for Trump or that other Russian candidate (Green Party), would have been enough to win things in the key states.

                          This article covers what a disaster his supporters turned the convention into. He bears responsibility for their behavior for various reasons.

                          He insisted on not conceding after Super Tuesday when it became (effectively) impossible for him to win. This probably contributed to his supporters out of control behavior at the convention.

                          He spent most of August working on his book instead of campaigning for Clinton.

                          He turned on Clinton in the final week of the election. (opinion piece)

                          Last, he either knew or should have known that he was getting online support from Russia and did nothing about it.
                          Last edited by DivineOb; 01-16-2020, 08:21 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            Or the fact that CNN clearly showed its bias against Sanders for all the world to see during the debates, which could spark suspicion among his supporters that the DNC establishment is once again conspiring against his nomination.
                            They should already know that from the first time. Sanders has zero chance at winning and will sell out again, Warren can only win if she sells out.
                            Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                              Yes, the DNC screwed over Sanders. I agree 100% on that. If that hadn't happened I assume she likely would have won the election since even a tiny fraction of his followers, who either didn't vote or voted for Trump or that other Russian candidate (Green Party), would have been enough to win things in the key states.

                              This article covers what a disaster his supporters turned the convention into.
                              Something to look forward.
                              Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                                Yes, the DNC screwed over Sanders. I agree 100% on that. If that hadn't happened I assume she likely would have won the election since even a tiny fraction of his followers, who either didn't vote or voted for Trump or that other Russian candidate (Green Party), would have been enough to win things in the key states.

                                This article covers what a disaster his supporters turned the convention into. He bears responsibility for their behavior for various reasons.

                                He insisted on not conceding after Super Tuesday when it became (effectively) impossible for him to win. This probably contributed to his supporters out of control behavior at the convention.

                                He spent most of August working on his book instead of campaigning for Clinton.

                                He turned on Clinton in the final week of the election. (opinion piece)

                                Last, he either knew or should have known that he was getting online support from Russia and did nothing about it.
                                That's not turning on Clinton, Divo, Bernie was actually campaigning for her in Wisconsin at the time he was quoted. He was just stressing the point "not to take his supporters for granted." Bernie is to the left of Clinton, and has a lot of support behind him, but Clinton is far left of Trump and the conservative ideology. To think that he turned against Clinton, you'd have to think that he was supporting Trump.
                                Last edited by JimL; 01-16-2020, 10:10 PM.

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