Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Impeachment Related: GAO Determines Trump Violated Impoundment Control Act

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Perhaps the Dems should have led with that instead of grasping at conspiracies?
    Congress, as the law requires, wasn't informed of the impoundment act violation, remember. It only came to light as a result of the investigation into the whistleblowers report.

    Comment


    • #47
      Turley's view seems to be that Trump did violate the statute in question, and that doing so was inappropriate, but not impeachable. He regards the GAO as non-partisan and reputable, but notes that it *often* finds Presidents to be in violation.

      Dersh, on Hannity's show tonight, went even further: Consistent with his strong view of Article II powers, he finds the statute impotent, since no statute can override inherent Constitutional powers, and POTUS has sole authority to set and execute foreign policy (except in the specific cases of "declaring" war and enacting formal treaties). GAO is technically "non-partisan," but is *not* a-political. It is a Congressional entity, and as such will usually tend to favor Article I Congressional powers over Article II Executive powers.
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
        Turley's view seems to be that Trump did violate the statute in question, and that doing so was inappropriate, but not impeachable. He regards the GAO as non-partisan and reputable, but notes that it *often* finds Presidents to be in violation.

        Dersh, on Hannity's show tonight, went even further: Consistent with his strong view of Article II powers, he finds the statute impotent, since no statute can override inherent Constitutional powers, and POTUS has sole authority to set and execute foreign policy (except in the specific cases of "declaring" war and enacting formal treaties). GAO is technically "non-partisan," but is *not* a-political. It is a Congressional entity, and as such will usually tend to favor Article I Congressional powers over Article II Executive powers.

        Well, that gets at the key distinction I was looking to collectively examining between Obama's 2014 violation and Trump's 2019 violation. Turley would be correct that a violation of the ICA alone would not merit impeachment. But that's not why Trump was impeached. Obama's violation in 2014 had two key distinctions: it was in pursuit of an official, legitimate purpose (a prisoner transfer for a captive soldier) and the administration was incidentally in violation of a 30-day window, as it kept Congress updated on the transfer as it was happening, both by telephone and written communication.

        Trump's violation, in contrast, was not done for an official, legitimate purpose -- it was, in fact, done against the collective advice and intent of his agencies for the purpose of his own political benefit (agree or disagree, that's the article of impeachment). Moreover, the Trump administration was purposefully in violation of its duty to inform Congress, not incidentally -- this is part of the second article, obstruction of Congress ... and GAO notes that it, too, has not been provided necessary documents from the administration.

        The President has sole authority to execute foreign policy, yes. This was the argument that OMB ended up workshopping in September before Trump released the funding. But he must execute foreign policy in accordance with the law. And if he signs a bill into law that appropriates money as a matter of foreign policy, he must faithfully execute that law -- the President does not have a blank check to simply not spend the funding that he himself signed into law.

        --Sam
        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
          Turley's view seems to be that Trump did violate the statute in question, and that doing so was inappropriate, but not impeachable. He regards the GAO as non-partisan and reputable, but notes that it *often* finds Presidents to be in violation.
          Turley is another republican hack, always has been, but I agree that violating the Impoundment act of itself would probably not be seen as impeachable, and so it would probably never go that far. But it isn't just the Impoundment act violation itself, it's the violation of the impoundment act in connection to what the aid was impounded for that makes it impeachable. He put the national security of the U.S. in jeopardy by putting the national security of our ally Ukraine in jeopardy by witholding military aid meant to aid them in their defense of our common adversary. And he did that for personal gain by using the aid as leverage to extort Ukraine into interfering with a U.S. election. Turley doesn't take the circumstances into consideration of course when giving his opinion, because if he did he wouldn't be doing his job of political hack.
          Dersh, on Hannity's show tonight, went even further: Consistent with his strong view of Article II powers, he finds the statute impotent, since no statute can override inherent Constitutional powers, and POTUS has sole authority to set and execute foreign policy (except in the specific cases of "declaring" war and enacting formal treaties). GAO is technically "non-partisan," but is *not* a-political. It is a Congressional entity, and as such will usually tend to favor Article I Congressional powers over Article II Executive powers.
          Hmmm, another Trump supporting, FOX NEWS contributing, political hack. The Constitutional power to appropriate funds resides in Congress, not in the Executive, and that goes for military aid. The rules for withholding those funds are clear, and the President violated those rules by not informing Congress of the hold. The"Government Accountability Office" did not make the law, they're simply explaining how the OMB at Trumps direction violated that law. Article 2 doesn't give the President power of the purse, that belongs to Congress. But again, Dershowitz like Turley is a partisan hacks now that his buddy is president, so if you keep listening to them you will always hear what you want to here in so far as they are able to spin it that way.

          Comment


          • #50
            A caveat:

            Reading more closely, Turley does not say that Trump's violation of the ICA is not impeachable: he says that the House should have waited before voting for impeachment for this and other information to "complete the record". Presumably, if the complete record shows that Trump ordered the hold against governmental interest and for his personal benefit, Turley would agree that represents impeachable conduct, consistent with his testimony before the Judiciary Committee.

            It would be good to get Turley to address this GAO ruling in the context of JustSecurity's reporting of the OMB/DOD communications but I don't suspect he'd budge from his "complete the record" perch.

            --Sam
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • #51
              In fact, the GAO found the Obama administration to be in violation of the law on at least seven different occasions.

              https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...d-federal-law/
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                A caveat:

                Reading more closely, Turley does not say that Trump's violation of the ICA is not impeachable: he says that the House should have waited before voting for impeachment for this and other information to "complete the record". Presumably, if the complete record shows that Trump ordered the hold against governmental interest and for his personal benefit, Turley would agree that represents impeachable conduct, consistent with his testimony before the Judiciary Committee.

                It would be good to get Turley to address this GAO ruling in the context of JustSecurity's reporting of the OMB/DOD communications but I don't suspect he'd budge from his "complete the record" perch.

                --Sam
                The only repercussion listed in the Act is for the Comptroller to sue the President to release the funds. And that lawsuit will then be considered "official notification" to Congress of the hold.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  In fact, the GAO found the Obama administration to be in violation of the law on at least seven different occasions.

                  https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...d-federal-law/
                  Whataboutism!!!!

                  Sorry, had to get it out.
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    In fact, the GAO found the Obama administration to be in violation of the law on at least seven different occasions.

                    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...d-federal-law/
                    There is a difference between walking out of a store accidentally carrying the pen with which you signed the credit card receipt and walking out of the store with $500 worth of lifted merchandise under your coat and in your backpack.

                    But according to your thinking they are both shoplifting and should carry the same punishment.
                    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-17-2020, 07:01 AM.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      There is a difference between walking out of a store accidentally carrying the pen with which you signed the credit card receipt and walking out of the store with $500 worth of lifted merchandise under your coat and in your backpack.

                      But according to your twisted mind they are both shoplifting and should carry the same punishment.
                      “Trump is guilty, but Obama is perfectly innocent!!!”

                      Got another fast one you care to pull? Was the Obama Administration that incompetent that they broke the same law six times in a row and didn’t know it each and every time? Walking out of the store once or twice can be considered a mistake, doing it on six different occasions is either the sign something is wrong with you or you’re doing it on purpose. What one is it?
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        There is a difference between walking out of a store accidentally carrying the pen with which you signed the credit card receipt and walking out of the store with $500 worth of lifted merchandise under your coat and in your backpack.

                        But according to your thinking they are both shoplifting and should carry the same punishment.
                        Nope, that's not my thinking. Try again.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          “Trump is guilty, but Obama is perfectly innocent!!!”

                          Got another fast one you care to pull? Was the Obama Administration that incompetent that they broke the same law six times in a row and didn’t know it each and every time? Walking out of the store once or twice can be considered a mistake, doing it on six different occasions is either the sign something is wrong with you or you’re doing it on purpose. What one is it?
                          Do you have evidence that any of the GAO violations MM references come anywhere near to the level of abuse of the policy that define Trump's shenanigans with the Ukraine funding?
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Nope, that's not my thinking. Try again.
                            Based on the posts made here concerning the sorts of violations attributed to Obama as they compare with what Trump has done, that most certainly does define your thinking.

                            Can you give an example not yet mentioned of Obama abusing this policy in a way that is even close by comparison to what Trump has done?

                            So far with obama we are talking about technicalities, procedural delays that bumped up against arbitrary limits, not willful, purposed deception and violation for personal gain.
                            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-17-2020, 09:36 AM.
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              In fact, the GAO found the Obama administration to be in violation of the law on at least seven different occasions.

                              https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...d-federal-law/
                              Nobody is arguing that a mere GAO finding of a violation is impeachable in itself. What your citing is the Antideficiency act which is when an agency over spends appropriated funds, not when they are held up. And the violation, in either case, of itself wouldn't be impeachable which is why impeachment was never suggested in those cases. Trump held up funds, which wouldn't in itself be impeachable except in connection with the crime it was associated with.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                Do you have evidence that any of the GAO violations MM references come anywhere near to the level of abuse of the policy that define Trump's shenanigans with the Ukraine funding?
                                That’s some great loaded language there Jim, but those of us not infected with TDS see an issue with violating the same law, in six separate occasions. To use your own analogy, the Obama administration walked out of the store, six times, forgetting to pay for something. Are they that forgetful or do they do it on purpose and simply try to pass it off as an honest mistake? Nice avoidance Jim, but my point remains unanswered. Is the Obama administration simply incompetent or guilty? Pick your poison.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                104 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                302 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                109 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                196 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                357 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X