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Impeachment Related: GAO Determines Trump Violated Impoundment Control Act
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Turley's view seems to be that Trump did violate the statute in question, and that doing so was inappropriate, but not impeachable. He regards the GAO as non-partisan and reputable, but notes that it *often* finds Presidents to be in violation.
Dersh, on Hannity's show tonight, went even further: Consistent with his strong view of Article II powers, he finds the statute impotent, since no statute can override inherent Constitutional powers, and POTUS has sole authority to set and execute foreign policy (except in the specific cases of "declaring" war and enacting formal treaties). GAO is technically "non-partisan," but is *not* a-political. It is a Congressional entity, and as such will usually tend to favor Article I Congressional powers over Article II Executive powers.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostTurley's view seems to be that Trump did violate the statute in question, and that doing so was inappropriate, but not impeachable. He regards the GAO as non-partisan and reputable, but notes that it *often* finds Presidents to be in violation.
Dersh, on Hannity's show tonight, went even further: Consistent with his strong view of Article II powers, he finds the statute impotent, since no statute can override inherent Constitutional powers, and POTUS has sole authority to set and execute foreign policy (except in the specific cases of "declaring" war and enacting formal treaties). GAO is technically "non-partisan," but is *not* a-political. It is a Congressional entity, and as such will usually tend to favor Article I Congressional powers over Article II Executive powers.
Well, that gets at the key distinction I was looking to collectively examining between Obama's 2014 violation and Trump's 2019 violation. Turley would be correct that a violation of the ICA alone would not merit impeachment. But that's not why Trump was impeached. Obama's violation in 2014 had two key distinctions: it was in pursuit of an official, legitimate purpose (a prisoner transfer for a captive soldier) and the administration was incidentally in violation of a 30-day window, as it kept Congress updated on the transfer as it was happening, both by telephone and written communication.
Trump's violation, in contrast, was not done for an official, legitimate purpose -- it was, in fact, done against the collective advice and intent of his agencies for the purpose of his own political benefit (agree or disagree, that's the article of impeachment). Moreover, the Trump administration was purposefully in violation of its duty to inform Congress, not incidentally -- this is part of the second article, obstruction of Congress ... and GAO notes that it, too, has not been provided necessary documents from the administration.
The President has sole authority to execute foreign policy, yes. This was the argument that OMB ended up workshopping in September before Trump released the funding. But he must execute foreign policy in accordance with the law. And if he signs a bill into law that appropriates money as a matter of foreign policy, he must faithfully execute that law -- the President does not have a blank check to simply not spend the funding that he himself signed into law.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostTurley's view seems to be that Trump did violate the statute in question, and that doing so was inappropriate, but not impeachable. He regards the GAO as non-partisan and reputable, but notes that it *often* finds Presidents to be in violation.
Dersh, on Hannity's show tonight, went even further: Consistent with his strong view of Article II powers, he finds the statute impotent, since no statute can override inherent Constitutional powers, and POTUS has sole authority to set and execute foreign policy (except in the specific cases of "declaring" war and enacting formal treaties). GAO is technically "non-partisan," but is *not* a-political. It is a Congressional entity, and as such will usually tend to favor Article I Congressional powers over Article II Executive powers.
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A caveat:
Reading more closely, Turley does not say that Trump's violation of the ICA is not impeachable: he says that the House should have waited before voting for impeachment for this and other information to "complete the record". Presumably, if the complete record shows that Trump ordered the hold against governmental interest and for his personal benefit, Turley would agree that represents impeachable conduct, consistent with his testimony before the Judiciary Committee.
It would be good to get Turley to address this GAO ruling in the context of JustSecurity's reporting of the OMB/DOD communications but I don't suspect he'd budge from his "complete the record" perch.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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In fact, the GAO found the Obama administration to be in violation of the law on at least seven different occasions.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...d-federal-law/Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Sam View PostA caveat:
Reading more closely, Turley does not say that Trump's violation of the ICA is not impeachable: he says that the House should have waited before voting for impeachment for this and other information to "complete the record". Presumably, if the complete record shows that Trump ordered the hold against governmental interest and for his personal benefit, Turley would agree that represents impeachable conduct, consistent with his testimony before the Judiciary Committee.
It would be good to get Turley to address this GAO ruling in the context of JustSecurity's reporting of the OMB/DOD communications but I don't suspect he'd budge from his "complete the record" perch.
--SamThat's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIn fact, the GAO found the Obama administration to be in violation of the law on at least seven different occasions.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...d-federal-law/
Sorry, had to get it out."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIn fact, the GAO found the Obama administration to be in violation of the law on at least seven different occasions.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...d-federal-law/
But according to your thinking they are both shoplifting and should carry the same punishment.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-17-2020, 07:01 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThere is a difference between walking out of a store accidentally carrying the pen with which you signed the credit card receipt and walking out of the store with $500 worth of lifted merchandise under your coat and in your backpack.
But according to your twisted mind they are both shoplifting and should carry the same punishment.
Got another fast one you care to pull? Was the Obama Administration that incompetent that they broke the same law six times in a row and didn’t know it each and every time? Walking out of the store once or twice can be considered a mistake, doing it on six different occasions is either the sign something is wrong with you or you’re doing it on purpose. What one is it?"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThere is a difference between walking out of a store accidentally carrying the pen with which you signed the credit card receipt and walking out of the store with $500 worth of lifted merchandise under your coat and in your backpack.
But according to your thinking they are both shoplifting and should carry the same punishment.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post“Trump is guilty, but Obama is perfectly innocent!!!”
Got another fast one you care to pull? Was the Obama Administration that incompetent that they broke the same law six times in a row and didn’t know it each and every time? Walking out of the store once or twice can be considered a mistake, doing it on six different occasions is either the sign something is wrong with you or you’re doing it on purpose. What one is it?My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostNope, that's not my thinking. Try again.
Can you give an example not yet mentioned of Obama abusing this policy in a way that is even close by comparison to what Trump has done?
So far with obama we are talking about technicalities, procedural delays that bumped up against arbitrary limits, not willful, purposed deception and violation for personal gain.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-17-2020, 09:36 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIn fact, the GAO found the Obama administration to be in violation of the law on at least seven different occasions.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...d-federal-law/
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostDo you have evidence that any of the GAO violations MM references come anywhere near to the level of abuse of the policy that define Trump's shenanigans with the Ukraine funding?"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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