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  • #31
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post
    Unlike Antifa? You noted that (1) they were there, and (2) that things were peaceful.

    Combine one and two, then the conclusion is that Antifa were peaceful!

    I tried to find something, anything, on how law enforcement handled the various factions, if groups were separated, and of there was an orchestrated sequence of events.

    Usually lobbying days need the groups to sign up to see the legislatures and moved as small groups around to the various legislators. So there was one set of people probably inside the building, one set inside the square, and one group outside the perimeter. Overlay those groups with the rough divide of "pro gun" and "anti gun", then each of the three sets can be dived down more.

    Also, lobbying days usually have many different groups lobbying, was gun rights the only topic of the day?

    Another point, the rally was a media event, people were there to show some broad and mass solidarity in the issue, and it was successfully pulled off, a violent rally, like Charlottesville would have been counter productive.

    Is tactical gear really the image of the right to bear arms? Many on the right and left wondered at the militarization of police forces; the preferred image is for gun rights is not the minute man wearing his street clothes!
    Do you think that Antifa would actually try something with much of the crowd carrying guns?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by simplicio View Post
      Was the peaceful outcome a result of any inherent qualities of the participants...
      On behalf of the responsible gun owners, yes, it's their inherent quality.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by simplicio View Post
        Was the peaceful outcome a result of any inherent qualities of the participants, or the efforts of the law enforcement planning and execution of the plan?
        Ask them. I can just relay what my daughter said she saw all day. I will say that several Antifa members were asked to remove their masks or leave by HEAVILY armed law enforcement.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Do you think that Antifa would actually try something with much of the crowd carrying guns?

          So Antifa was only deterred by the armed citizenry, and were not really peaceful, while the unarmed gun rights protesters were inherently peaceful, and the armed gun rights protesters outside the perimeter were were peaceful.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            On behalf of the responsible gun owners, yes, it's their inherent quality.
            Who are the responsible gun owners? Some neo-Nazis tried to provoke a response and were arrested. And how do we tell them responsible ones from the irresponsible ones?

            Do we want responsible gun owners to be armed within the churches? If so, then is responsibility a suitable criteria to choose which congregants are armed? Or is something more required, such as training.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by simplicio View Post
              So Antifa was only deterred by the armed citizenry, and were not really peaceful, while the unarmed gun rights protesters were inherently peaceful, and the armed gun rights protesters outside the perimeter were were peaceful.
              You got it in one.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                Who are the responsible gun owners? Some neo-Nazis tried to provoke a response and were arrested. And how do we tell them responsible ones from the irresponsible ones?
                It was pretty obvious to the cops, wasn't it?

                Do we want responsible gun owners to be armed within the churches?
                That's up to the Churches to decide - I personally don't like it, but it may necessary in this day and age.

                If so, then is responsibility a suitable criteria to choose which congregants are armed? Or is something more required, such as training.
                Training, coordination, a lot of thought --- and, yes, responsibility. I have a DEA agent, two Sheriff's Deputies, a Police Lieutenant, and an Assistant District Attorney (and a retired Sheriff) who are pretty much always present and armed --- we discourage anybody else from carrying, and have discussed the danger of "crossfire" where untrained persons can be too "helpful".
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  It was pretty obvious to the cops, wasn't it?



                  That's up to the Churches to decide - I personally don't like it, but it may necessary in this day and age.



                  Training, coordination, a lot of thought --- and, yes, responsibility. I have a DEA agent, two Sheriff's Deputies, a Police Lieutenant, and an Assistant District Attorney (and a retired Sheriff) who are pretty much always present and armed --- we discourage anybody else from carrying, and have discussed the danger of "crossfire" where untrained persons can be too "helpful".
                  I though everyone in Texas wore a cowboy hat and carried two six-shooters on their hips?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    It was pretty obvious to the cops, wasn't it?



                    That's up to the Churches to decide - I personally don't like it, but it may necessary in this day and age.



                    Training, coordination, a lot of thought --- and, yes, responsibility. I have a DEA agent, two Sheriff's Deputies, a Police Lieutenant, and an Assistant District Attorney (and a retired Sheriff) who are pretty much always present and armed --- we discourage anybody else from carrying, and have discussed the danger of "crossfire" where untrained persons can be too "helpful".
                    How many Antifa were toting guns at the rally?

                    That is quite a list of men with significant amounts of training, trained at taxpayer expense.

                    So "responsible gun owner" is not enough for you, something more is required.

                    You did not address the point about nazis, who were not welcome at the rally. Does ideology, ideas, or thoughts, come into play?
                    I do not know if Nazis were represented at the rally, or if there was any plan to weed them out of the inner perimeter.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      You got it in one.
                      How do you discern the violent Antifa from the nonviolent ones?

                      Maybe gun owners are people unaffected by original sin, which would account for the inherent pacifism of the men and women dressed in tactical garb. I saw plenty of green camo in the pictures, but I didn't see much orange camo!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                        How do you discern the violent Antifa from the nonviolent ones?
                        Whether one actually does violence or not.

                        Maybe gun owners are people unaffected by original sin, which would account for the inherent pacifism of the men and women dressed in tactical garb. I saw plenty of green camo in the pictures, but I didn't see much orange camo!
                        So what is your point?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                          How do you discern the violent Antifa from the nonviolent ones?
                          Are there any nonviolent ones? They don't seem very peaceful at any other rallies do they? Antifa is a movement steeped in violence from the beginning. If someone is non-violent, they need to find a different movement to associate with. Your question is like asking, "how do you tell the racist KKK from the non-racist ones?"

                          Maybe gun owners are people unaffected by original sin, which would account for the inherent pacifism of the men and women dressed in tactical garb. I saw plenty of green camo in the pictures, but I didn't see much orange camo!
                          huh???
                          Last edited by Sparko; 01-22-2020, 09:43 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Are there any nonviolent ones? They don't seem very peaceful at any other rallies do they? Antifa is a movement steeped in violence from the beginning. If someone is non-violent, they need to find a different movement to associate with. Your question is like asking, "how do you tell the racist KKK from the non-racist ones?"


                            huh???
                            Are there any nonviolent Antifa? Good question. But you note the existence of violent Antifa implies that all Antifa are violent!

                            The flaw in that argument, is obvious. If not, let me provide the example of some gun rights advocates, and gun owners, are violent. Therefore should we conclude gun owners are violent?

                            My second paragraph attempted to draw in Christian theology, the doctrine of original sin. Good people can do bad things. The exception being, of course gun owners! The Antifa are not peaceful, so it goes without saying that they have a fallen nature.

                            Many Christian posters are arguing that law enforcement plan was not really all that important, the gun owners are inherently peaceful.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                              Are there any nonviolent Antifa? Good question. But you note the existence of violent Antifa implies that all Antifa are violent!

                              The flaw in that argument, is obvious. If not, let me provide the example of some gun rights advocates, and gun owners, are violent. Therefore should we conclude gun owners are violent?

                              My second paragraph attempted to draw in Christian theology, the doctrine of original sin. Good people can do bad things. The exception being, of course gun owners! The Antifa are not peaceful, so it goes without saying that they have a fallen nature.

                              Many Christian posters are arguing that law enforcement plan was not really all that important, the gun owners are inherently peaceful.
                              "Gun Owners" are not a cohesive group. Not some movement. Antifa is. It is a movement that is based on violence. Gun owners are just people who own guns. They could even be members of antifa, or the KKK, criminals or the police. Even you. Your argument is like saying people who wear hats are the same as the KKK.

                              as to your second paragraph, we are all sinners. Even gun owners.

                              And not all gun owners are inherently peaceful. Duh. CP was talking about "responsible gun owners"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                "Gun Owners" are not a cohesive group. Not some movement. Antifa is. It is a movement that is based on violence. Gun owners are just people who own guns. They could even be members of antifa, or the KKK, criminals or the police. Even you. Your argument is like saying people who wear hats are the same as the KKK.

                                as to your second paragraph, we are all sinners. Even gun owners.

                                And not all gun owners are inherently peaceful. Duh. CP was talking about "responsible gun owners"
                                Remember Charlottesville in 2017? Many churches bussed in people to oppose the fascist and provide a Christian presence. And stand with Antifa. Were they anti fascist or not? I wonder how violent that young women who died there was, and if she was inherently violent then the murder had some degree of justification, a self defense of sorts. And Fields is only guilty of not waiting until he could justifiably defend himself.

                                That is a repugnant view. The crowd on the street posed no danger, was not violent when the car barreled down the street. The Christians who camped at the local church were not violent, posed no threat. From what I read, they were wiling to give water to any who entered, though it is unlikely any of the protesters entered, only counter protesters.

                                It seems your description does not posit that all gun owners are inherently peaceful, just responsible gun owners are peaceful.

                                Which are the responsible gun owners? Responsibility alone was not enough for cow poke when it comes to guns n the church. Significant amounts of training was given as examples.

                                In the church surrounding us, or on the street among strangers, who do we want to bear arms, potentially lethal weapons? An armed Antifa? Armed neo confederates?

                                Maybe a responsible klansman, as long as he is "responsible"?

                                Comment

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