Happy Robert E Lee Day

[seer]

So, Lee was doing what was socially acceptable in his time (regardless of the standards of today), and King was doing what was clearly NOT acceptable for a Baptist Minster (regardless of the standards of ANY day), yes?

Exactly, and simplicio still hasn't responded to my last post to him.

[mossrose]

Post four was by seer, not me. It refers to something which already hit the news, the release of FBI files. Seer referred to it an existing story which is accepted by many. If there was an orgy, it is likely King was not the only one participating with the prostitutes, it is likely that attendees to the workshop took part if it happened. The story is a condemnation of others, not just King.

I KNOW post 4 was by seer! He did not include anything that could have caused you to post your remark about Christians in general and Baptists in particular! You did not link to anything that would have given anyone any idea as to what YOU were referring to! And, believe it or not, not everybody knows what files the FBI does or does not release! Believe it or not, I never heard any news about any file release by anybody about any orgies by King or anyone else!

Yes the Catholic Church has had many calumnies leveled against it also, and the tales of orgies are anchored in erotic fantasies also. Which is why I took notice of the King orgy stories.

Why didn't you post evidence of orgy stories by King? All you did was throw Christians in general and Baptists in particular under the bus without any evidence whatsoever.

I'm now tired of your trolling.

And that's what you are. A troll.

[simplicio]

I'm willing to consider the possibility that they are, in part, true, but as I clearly pointed out, this is new to me -- I'm not a fan or student of orgies.



So, why didn't you object to it up front, rather than try to use it to throw Baptists under the bus?

And the document I included was from the FBI.



The "training workshops" were overwhelmingly blacks. Do you dispute that?



You're repeating yourself.

Umm, might want to read again. The orgy charge was not mine, and the inescapable conclusion is that it implicates Christians and Baptist Christians because of the heavy participation of Baptists in the event. My response might not have been an example of throwing Baptists under the bus. Rather it was an objection to the charge. You might not be a student of the orgy, but the term refers to a group participation. And just where would the group involved be drawn from?

Baptist are Baptists, even if they are black. Christians are Christians, even if they are black. And when we het to heaven, there will be one people there, Christian people. I am not sure just why you are making the arguments you are using.

[Cow Poke]

Umm, might want to read again. The orgy charge was not mine, and the inescapable conclusion is that it implicates Christians and Baptist Christians because of the heavy participation of Baptists in the event.

A) You did nothing to dispel the charge.
2) You used it to disparage Christians and Baptists, when the common denominator was race, not religion.

My response might not have been an example of throwing Baptists under the bus. Rather it was an objection to the charge. You might not be a student of the orgy, but the term refers to a group participation. And just where would the group involved be drawn from?

At this point, I'm beginning to think you're all about trolling, not honest discussion.

Baptist are Baptists, even if they are black.

Blacks are blacks, even if they are Baptist.

Christians are Christians, even if they are black.

Blacks are blacks, even if they are Christians.

And when we het to heaven, there will be one people there, Christian people. I am not sure just why you are making the arguments you are using.

And I'm beginning to think you really don't care to know.

[Cow Poke]

I KNOW post 4 was by seer! He did not include anything that could have caused you to post your remark about Christians in general and Baptists in particular! You did not link to anything that would have given anyone any idea as to what YOU were referring to! And, believe it or not, not everybody knows what files the FBI does or does not release! Believe it or not, I never heard any news about any file release by anybody about any orgies by King or anyone else!





Why didn't you post evidence of orgy stories by King? All you did was throw Christians in general and Baptists in particular under the bus without any evidence whatsoever.

I'm now tired of your trolling.

And that's what you are. A troll.

Yeah, I'm really thinking he's not interested in honest discussion.

[simplicio]

I KNOW post 4 was by seer! He did not include anything that could have caused you to post your remark about Christians in general and Baptists in particular! You did not link to anything that would have given anyone any idea as to what YOU were referring to! And, believe it or not, not everybody knows what files the FBI does or does not release! Believe it or not, I never heard any news about any file release by anybody about any orgies by King or anyone else!





Why didn't you post evidence of orgy stories by King? All you did was throw Christians in general and Baptists in particular under the bus without any evidence whatsoever.

I'm now tired of your trolling.

And that's what you are. A troll.

Might want to do a goggle search. The story exists and is given credence by Christians (even cow poke inadvertently made a comment that the attendees were shocked at the debauchery: Except there is no evidence of outrage, I did not comment since it was likely an example of multiplying objections)

Many Christians do accept the charges of orgies taking place, based on unverified FBI files, raw data. Given some of the abuses by the FBI in using unverified data, then I don't see my response as throwing any Christians under a bus.

Should we, as Christians, take the King orgy stories as credible? Seer certainly thought enough of them to bring it up on a thread dealing with reasons to honor King with a holiday.

If we do, then we are left with some mighty uncomfortable conclusions, namely that the dissolute lifestyle was not restricted only to King, but the others who either participated or knew and remained silent.

[Cow Poke]

Post four was by seer, not me. It refers to something which already hit the news, the release of FBI files. Seer referred to it an existing story which is accepted by many. If there was an orgy, it is likely King was not the only one participating with the prostitutes, it is likely that attendees to the workshop took part if it happened. The story is a condemnation of others, not just King.

And you're pretending this was a "Baptist" event, not a training workshop for blacks rightfully opposing racism.

[simplicio]

And you're pretending this was a "Baptist" event, not a training workshop for blacks rightfully opposing racism.

I am "pretending" that it was an event with a very heavy Baptist participation. It was geared toward religious leaders.

The events which is claimed that had orgies were events for Christian leaders, and had a heavy presence of Baptists. The calumny against King is a calumny against Christians, unless King would have waited for the Christians to leave before starting to party.

[Cow Poke]

I am "pretending" that it was an event with a very heavy Baptist participation. It was geared toward religious leaders.

You're amusing. It was geared toward BLACK leaders.

The events which is claimed that had orgies were events for Christian leaders, and had a heavy presence of Baptists.

Because the black activists happened to be predominantly Baptist, as many are today.

The calumny against King is a calumny against Christians, unless King would have waited for the Christians to leave before starting to party.

We're going round and round on this --- I'm going to leave you to your convoluted notion that the blacks were there for training in dealing with racism because they were CHRISTIANS, not because they were black.

Last word to you.

[simplicio]

You're amusing. It was geared toward BLACK leaders.



Because the black activists happened to be predominantly Baptist, as many are today.



We're going round and round on this --- I'm going to leave you to your convoluted notion that the blacks were there for training in dealing with racism because they were CHRISTIANS, not because they were black.

Last word to you.

It was a workshop for negro ministers in urban leadership. So yes, it was geared toward black leaders. But those black leaders it was geared toward were Christians.

So if the participants in the workshop did also take part in the debauchery, it is a scandal on the church (yes, even if one falls, it is a scandal). But the story also hinges on the fact that the orgies were known about by the participants, and it was a way to draw men to the events. Better than pizza!

And what was the reaction by these Christian leaders at the debauchery and lechery? A casual search turns up silence. Nothing. Until the FBI released so,e files on the JFK assassination.

[Cow Poke]

It was a workshop for negro ministers in urban leadership. So yes, it was geared toward black leaders. But those black leaders it was geared toward were Christians.

OK, see how you have to work to get where you're going?

So if the participants in the workshop did also take part in the debauchery, it is a scandal on the church (yes, even if one falls, it is a scandal).

Well, in particular, it would be a scandal on the BLACK church, but if one were to say that, he'd be accused of being racist, so...

But the story also hinges on the fact that the orgies were known about by the participants, and it was a way to draw men to the events. Better than pizza!

You mean the participants from the BLACK churches?

And what was the reaction by these Christian leaders at the debauchery and lechery?

A casual search turns up silence. Nothing. Until the FBI released so,e files on the JFK assassination.

OK, I give up --- do you think this really happened, or not? And if not, why didn't you just say so?


ETA: OOOOPS!!!! I just pulled a (what's his name who always says "last word to you" then chimes back in?)

[simplicio]

OK, see how you have to work to get where you're going?



Well, in particular, it would be a scandal on the BLACK church, but if one were to say that, he'd be accused of being racist, so...



You mean the participants from the BLACK churches?



OK, I give up --- do you think this really happened, or not? And if not, why didn't you just say so?


ETA: OOOOPS!!!! I just pulled a (what's his name who always says "last word to you" then chimes back in?)

Do I think it happened? No, not at all. Snopes even has an article dealing with it. It is a calumny, designed to smear and discredit.

I am surprised that you posit a distinction within the Body of Christ, Black Christian and White Christian. A scandal of black Christians is a scandal of Christians. a scandal concerning Black Baptists is a scandal of Baptists.

A workshop designed for negro ministers is a workshop for ministers. Skin color matters that much to you? Blackness trumps the holy spirit in the soul?

I hope the atheists and non Christians don't read this thread.

[Cow Poke]

Do I think it happened? No, not at all. Snopes even has an article dealing with it. It is a calumny, designed to smear and discredit.

I am surprised that you posit a distinction within the Body of Christ, Black Christian and White Christian. A scandal of black Christians is a scandal of Christians. a scandal concerning Black Baptists is a scandal of Baptists.

A workshop designed for negro ministers is a workshop for ministers. Skin color matters that much to you? Blackness trumps the holy spirit in the soul?

I hope the atheists and non Christians don't read this thread.

Your extreme virtue signaling is noted and dismissed.

[oxmixmudd]

You're amusing. It was geared toward BLACK leaders.



Because the black activists happened to be predominantly Baptist, as many are today.



We're going round and round on this --- I'm going to leave you to your convoluted notion that the blacks were there for training in dealing with racism because they were CHRISTIANS, not because they were black.

Last word to you.

Unfortunately, sexual abuse and excess among Christian leaders is neither rare nor limited to any one race or denomination. And it all too often comes partnered with the power and privilege that accompanies fame and admiration from large numbers of people.

As Paul lamented in his day, there are actually very few that claim to proclaim the gospel that actually exhibit true Christian character and preach from pure motives.

[shunyadragon]

That is not the point Shuny! We were comparing Lee to King...

You selectively trashed Martin Luther King apparently whether he deserved a holiday without making specifically comparing King to Lee. Your extreme bias against King is ore than apparent.The question whether King or Lee deserve a commemorative holiday are separate issues.

My previous post still stands concerning whether their sex life determines whether their accomplishments in life are worthy of commemoration.