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  • #91
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Right because the North would not leave after many requests, it was an occupying force. And it was still the North that invaded the South.
    The fort was Federal property.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Just as Christian men committed treason against the King of England.
      The issue is the United States and not England.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Homer, I'm not saying I agree with the South but . . .
        but . . . your posts indicate you do support the South has the right of succession, which is documented that the goal of the South was to preserve the institution of slavery in the name of state rights where the North was making a sincere effort to progressively end slavery in all states.

        The reality is the South started the Civil War with the Capture of the Federal Fot Sumpter and started the Civil War.

        Wave your Confederate flag with pride.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-21-2020, 10:18 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          Actually, his thoughts were formed largely by his reading of Thoreau's "On Civil Disobedience". I did my final paper in college comp on King and Gandhi's change of strategy after they were both exposed to Thoreau.
          It is a popular school topic for papers. But it was the political actions which drew from Thoreau. Action is a secular response, the pragmatic and prudent response to effect change.

          Would MLK have done the same if Thoreau had not collected his thoughts and committed them to paper? I think so, the program of the SCLC (formed later by Men working within the church and civil rights groups) had already committed themselves to their program and were looking for a suitable spokesman. Thurgood Marshall pricked the conscience of lawyers, but was ineffective at influencing public opinion. Booker T Washington was effective with letters and the pen, but had limited impact.

          The Black Christian leaders were largely separated from their brethren, white church leadership. That was more influential for King. Gandhi demonstrated the effectiveness of mass, peaceful demonstration, he broke the will of the English nation, and in a way I wonder if Thoreau really envisioned. The idea was the black man as a citizen with dignity, cementing that idea and ideal in the public conscience was the goal.

          The funeral of Emmett Till cemented that idea in the American conscience. The severely damaged body of the boy was removed from the context of the south, the mother's grief was recognized as universal in a way few other lynching examples were perceived. And the picture was worth a thousand words.

          The idea of Thoreau's influence ignores the history of the civil rights movement which did not start with the bus boycotts, ignores the controversies within the Body of Christ and the impact of denominationalism, and ignores the impact of the recent world war (both the reassessment of church doctrines affecting the Holocaust and the cold war's influence on civil rights). And most importantly it downplays the richness of Christian thought undergirding King's thought.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Let me go on record as saying that my "War of Northern Aggression" schtick is just that... a schtick. I am still amazed, to this day, that our Nation came to the place of brother hating brother and families split and so many lives lost... Americans on both sides.

            People who know me in real life know that in my Church work, I'm "the boss" (under Christ) and our church is majority white, though we have a good Nigerian and Hispanic contingent. (some occasional repeat visitors who are black but not Nigerian)

            At work during the week, in my mission stuff, my "boss" is a black man, and so are my three immediate reports. I'm a minority at work - in a very significant way, and my "clients" are about 65% black and 25% Hispanic.

            And the ONLY reason I know that is that it's required on reporting when we are dealing with federal assistance money like FEMA for hurricane recovery and other programs.

            But, still, on Tweb, I'm a racist.
            Will the real cow poke please stand up?

            Yes, you are a Christian. And I am sure you have black friends, which is proof you are not racist (what is the proper number of black friends needed so that one can prove he is not racist?)

            Your schtick is just fine, if you want the world to see that the church does not harbor racists or does not find common cause with racists, that racist rhetoric does not affect your conscience.

            Besides, you are a Christian, and everyone knows a Christian cannot be a racist. A soul alive in Christ.

            No matter how close the discussion comes to overt racism, the good Christian ought not address it, there are enemies there, atheists, Democrats, progressives, and leftists.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              The fort was Federal property.
              Not after the secession. The US had no more right to be in the CSA's territory than we did in France after they asked our military to leave.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                The fort was Federal property.
                Not according to the South, and that is the point.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  The issue is the United States and not England.
                  One man's traitor is another man's freedom fighter...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    but . . . your posts indicate you do support the South has the right of succession, which is documented that the goal of the South was to preserve the institution of slavery in the name of state rights where the North was making a sincere effort to progressively end slavery in all states.

                    The reality is the South started the Civil War with the Capture of the Federal Fot Sumpter and started the Civil War.

                    Wave your Confederate flag with pride.
                    That is a lie Shuny, stop lying about me. I'm presenting how the South would view these things, NOWHERE did I say I agree. And there is no Constitutional prohibition against succession, that is a FACT.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Not according to the South, and that is the point.
                      I heard that same argument from defenders of Iran's State sponsored terrorism.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                        If this is a joke, it's in poor taste. If it's not a joke, it's unspeakably racist.
                        .........
                        No one else is speaking against this.

                        That's a problem.
                        "The city has become what it is because the citizens are what they are" . Or, in Christian parlance, Lex orendi, lex credenda, lex vivndi (we worship, we belief, we live).

                        I have asked if we Christians really want the faith in the public square. The moment a politician who professes the faith airs such views, the first to retreat would be Christians, at least, I hope.

                        If the Christian faith informs such views, allows them and encourages them, then has the faith earned its place in the public square.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          Not after the secession. The US had no more right to be in the CSA's territory than we did in France after they asked our military to leave.
                          Non sequitur. France wasn't seceding from the US. Federal property in seceding states should have been the subject of negotiations, not confiscation.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Non sequitur. France wasn't seceding from the US. Federal property in seceding states should have been the subject of negotiations, not confiscation.
                            Why? How many other Federal properties in their newly minted country would they have to negotiate for? It is like saying that England could keep a fortress overlooking the Boston harbor.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Why? How many other Federal properties in their newly minted country would they have to negotiate for? It is like saying that England could keep a fortress overlooking the Boston harbor.
                              Scotland moved a lot of military hardware including nuclear weapons to England. It does have precedence. At the very least such a state would have to do that, and if there are any permanent military installations, they would be perhaps temporarily smaller zones belonging to the united states still until such a time as they can be closed down. The state that seceded would have no right to claim neither the arsenal, fortifications or advanced weaponry except to such a degree as will be negotiated with the United States.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Why? How many other Federal properties in their newly minted country would they have to negotiate for? It is like saying that England could keep a fortress overlooking the Boston harbor.
                                You might have missed it, but that was not exactly an amicable split.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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