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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Right, so if Texas decided to secede we should invade, kill a lot of Texans and force them to stay... Got it...
    Who knows? Both sides dawdled before Ft Sumter, I suspect both sides would wonder what to do and how to resolve the problem today. There aren't too many precedents to follow. Neither side would likely take it lightly.

    Then again, maybe the private militias could keep the US military out, defeat them. The governor famously called on the Texas National Guard to keep an eye on the UN when units were conducting exercises in Arizona, militias were "on alert".

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Right, so if Texas decided to secede we should invade, kill a lot of Texans and force them to stay... Got it...
      The United States didn't start a the war that killed 650,000 Americans, the seceding State of S. Carolina started the killing.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        The United States didn't start a the war that killed 650,000 Americans, the seceding State of S. Carolina started the killing.
        No Jim, the North would not leave after repeated requests to do so, and the South did not invade the the North. The North were the invaders.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          The United States didn't start a the war that killed 650,000 Americans, the seceding State of S. Carolina started the killing.
          No one died and no one was injured at Sumter
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

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          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            No Jim, the North would not leave after repeated requests to do so, and the South did not invade the the North. The North were the invaders.
            Doesn't really matter does it, the secession was illegal and the treasonous S. Carolina attacked a U.S military fort.

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            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Doesn't really matter does it, the secession was illegal and the treasonous S. Carolina attacked a U.S military fort.
              Again Jim, secession was not illegal, certainly not then. No matter what the court made up after the fact. It was not illegal when they did it...
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Again Jim, secession was not illegal, certainly not then. No matter what the court made up after the fact. It was not illegal when they did it...
                Yes, actually it was, the Costitution didn't change from then until 1869. They may have not known it was illegal according to the Constitution, but if it was found to be illegal in 1869, and is still illegal to this day, then it was illegal in 1860 as well whether it was tested in the courts or not.

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                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Yes, actually it was, the Costitution didn't change from then until 1869. They may have not known it was illegal according to the Constitution, but if it was found to be illegal in 1869, and is still illegal to this day, then it was illegal in 1860 as well whether it was tested in the courts or not.
                  No one knew it was illegal - you know why Jim? Because the Constitution NEVER ADDRESSES it! And you can't show where it does...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    No one knew it was illegal - you know why Jim? Because the Constitution NEVER ADDRESSES it! And you can't show where it does...
                    I don't need to, neither I nor you are a constitutional scholar, but those on the Supreme Court certainly are and the Supreme Court ruled that "in all its provisions, the constitution informs us that the U.S. is an indisoluable, indestructable Union composed of indestructable states. A Perpetual Union as agreed to and signed on to, by the States in the Articles of the Confederation.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      I don't need to, neither I nor you are a constitutional scholar, but those on the Supreme Court certainly are and the Supreme Court ruled that "in all its provisions, the constitution informs us that the U.S. is an indisoluable, indestructable Union composed of indestructable states. A Perpetual Union as agreed to and signed on to, by the States in the Articles of the Confederation.
                      Are you saying the Supreme Court is never wrong?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Are you saying the Supreme Court is never wrong?
                        It's always possible they could get it wrong, but it's their job as Constitutional scholars to get it right or wrong, not yours. But secession has remained illegal for over 200 years, so I think they got it right.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          No one knew it was illegal - you know why Jim? Because the Constitution NEVER ADDRESSES it! And you can't show where it does...
                          While some did question whether secession was "legal", treason was narrowly defined in the constitution as levying war.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Yes, actually it was, the Costitution didn't change from then until 1869. They may have not known it was illegal according to the Constitution, but if it was found to be illegal in 1869, and is still illegal to this day, then it was illegal in 1860 as well whether it was tested in the courts or not.
                            Up until the Civil War it was generally understood that states could withdraw, secede, from the nation[1]. The federal government (represented by the north in this case) decided that was not going to be the case and was willing to use violence to enforce that opinion.

                            As an aside, a couple of years ago there was a movement in California to secede from the country and an effort to put the measure on the ballot so it could be voted on. Now if secession is against the law then wouldn't trying to put the issue on the ballot be tantamount to conspiracy to commit a crime?







                            1. Not too many years before several northern states, primarily (or maybe exclusively) in the northeast seriously considered secession over the Mexican American War. AFAICT there was no talk of forcing them to stay in the country if they did secede. As a side note Timothy Pickering (Secretary of State under Washington and John Adams) led a secessionist movement in New England (and talked of joining in Canada) over the War of 1812.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                            • The Confederacy wasn't interested in invading or occupying the Northern states but rather were intent on defending their sovereignty.

                              Still, it cannot be denied that the South fired the first shots (Fort Sumter) thus initiating hostilities. However, there was a whole lot of provoking that went on before that.

                              Robert Anderson, the commander of the Union forces in Charleston, was specifically selected by General Winfield Scott because he was believed to be sympathetic to the South[1] and would avoid any actions provocative to South Carolina. But Scott was wrong about Anderson.

                              After the South Carolina seceded (the first state to do so), Anderson, without orders, moved his garrison from Fort Moultrie to Fort Sumter in the middle of Charleston Harbor and then had the cannons (which had until then been aimed seaward and hence defending the city) moved so that they were trained upon the city instead. This act was obviously considered highly proactive and defiant by both sides at the time as other garrisons had simply moved out.

                              James Buchanan, who was still president at the time that Anderson took matters into his own hands, was said to have been pretty upset with him.





                              1. Anderson himself was a slaveholder from Kentucky although he had sold his slaves shortly before the outbreak of hostilities.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Are you saying the Supreme Court is never wrong?
                                Right or wrong the Supreme Court is the rule of the land until changed by a later Supreme Court ruling, and because you disagree with the ruling does not even make it possibly wrong.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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