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Thread: Happy Robert E Lee Day

  1. #131
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Are you saying the Supreme Court is never wrong?
    It's always possible they could get it wrong, but it's their job as Constitutional scholars to get it right or wrong, not yours. But secession has remained illegal for over 200 years, so I think they got it right.

  2. #132
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No one knew it was illegal - you know why Jim? Because the Constitution NEVER ADDRESSES it! And you can't show where it does...
    While some did question whether secession was "legal", treason was narrowly defined in the constitution as levying war.

  3. #133
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Yes, actually it was, the Costitution didn't change from then until 1869. They may have not known it was illegal according to the Constitution, but if it was found to be illegal in 1869, and is still illegal to this day, then it was illegal in 1860 as well whether it was tested in the courts or not.
    Up until the Civil War it was generally understood that states could withdraw, secede, from the nation[1]. The federal government (represented by the north in this case) decided that was not going to be the case and was willing to use violence to enforce that opinion.

    As an aside, a couple of years ago there was a movement in California to secede from the country and an effort to put the measure on the ballot so it could be voted on. Now if secession is against the law then wouldn't trying to put the issue on the ballot be tantamount to conspiracy to commit a crime?







    1. Not too many years before several northern states, primarily (or maybe exclusively) in the northeast seriously considered secession over the Mexican American War. AFAICT there was no talk of forcing them to stay in the country if they did secede. As a side note Timothy Pickering (Secretary of State under Washington and John Adams) led a secessionist movement in New England (and talked of joining in Canada) over the War of 1812.

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  4. #134
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    The Confederacy wasn't interested in invading or occupying the Northern states but rather were intent on defending their sovereignty.

    Still, it cannot be denied that the South fired the first shots (Fort Sumter) thus initiating hostilities. However, there was a whole lot of provoking that went on before that.

    Robert Anderson, the commander of the Union forces in Charleston, was specifically selected by General Winfield Scott because he was believed to be sympathetic to the South[1] and would avoid any actions provocative to South Carolina. But Scott was wrong about Anderson.

    After the South Carolina seceded (the first state to do so), Anderson, without orders, moved his garrison from Fort Moultrie to Fort Sumter in the middle of Charleston Harbor and then had the cannons (which had until then been aimed seaward and hence defending the city) moved so that they were trained upon the city instead. This act was obviously considered highly proactive and defiant by both sides at the time as other garrisons had simply moved out.

    James Buchanan, who was still president at the time that Anderson took matters into his own hands, was said to have been pretty upset with him.





    1. Anderson himself was a slaveholder from Kentucky although he had sold his slaves shortly before the outbreak of hostilities.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  5. #135
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Are you saying the Supreme Court is never wrong?
    Right or wrong the Supreme Court is the rule of the land until changed by a later Supreme Court ruling, and because you disagree with the ruling does not even make it possibly wrong.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  6. #136
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    The Confederacy wasn't interested in invading or occupying the Northern states but rather were intent on defending their sovereignty.

    Still, it cannot be denied that the South fired the first shots (Fort Sumter) thus initiating hostilities. However, there was a whole lot of provoking that went on before that.

    Robert Anderson, the commander of the Union forces in Charleston, was specifically selected by General Winfield Scott because he was believed to be sympathetic to the South[1] and would avoid any actions provocative to South Carolina. But Scott was wrong about Anderson.

    After the South Carolina seceded (the first state to do so), Anderson, without orders, moved his garrison from Fort Moultrie to Fort Sumter in the middle of Charleston Harbor and then had the cannons (which had until then been aimed seaward and hence defending the city) moved so that they were trained upon the city instead. This act was obviously considered highly proactive and defiant by both sides at the time as other garrisons had simply moved out.

    James Buchanan, who was still president at the time that Anderson took matters into his own hands, was said to have been pretty upset with him.

    1. Anderson himself was a slaveholder from Kentucky although he had sold his slaves shortly before the outbreak of hostilities.
    All I see here is a general do his best to defend a Federal Fort under imminent attack. South Carolina trying enforce their treasonist secession.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. #137
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    All I see here is a general do his best to defend a Federal Fort under imminent attack. South Carolina trying enforce their treasonist secession.
    One point which needs clarified here, which I think is being ignored:


    Why do you use the provocative word treasonist for the actions of the Confederates at Sumter?

  8. #138
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    All I see here is a general do his best to defend a Federal Fort under imminent attack. South Carolina trying enforce their treasonist secession.
    He took it upon himself to occupy an abandoned fort and then moved the cannons so that they were trained on the city. His actions pretty much pissed off everybody on both sides.

    Anderson was in no way shape or form some kind of hero doing his duty.

    Still, Confederate forces screwed up royally when they fired the first shot.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  9. #139
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    He took it upon himself to occupy an abandoned fort and then moved the cannons so that they were trained on the city. His actions pretty much pissed off everybody on both sides.

    Anderson was in no way shape or form some kind of hero doing his duty.

    Still, Confederate forces screwed up royally when they fired the first shot.
    Not a hero? Perhaps acquiescing to the evil of slavery would have been his duty!

    I wonder which of these apply here: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...e-Christianity

  10. #140
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    I don't need to, neither I nor you are a constitutional scholar, but those on the Supreme Court certainly are and the Supreme Court ruled that "in all its provisions, the constitution informs us that the U.S. is an indisoluable, indestructable Union composed of indestructable states. A Perpetual Union as agreed to and signed on to, by the States in the Articles of the Confederation.
    Sorry, Jim, but a SCOTUS decision is not retroactive. So, until the SCOTUS decides on something, it is not unconstitutional, and when they decide, it is only unconstitutional from that moment on.
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 01-24-2020 at 06:47 AM.


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