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  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    You might have missed it, but that was not exactly an amicable split.
    Either was the split between North and South - the North was never going to let the South go. That is why they invaded...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Non sequitur. France wasn't seceding from the US. Federal property in seceding states should have been the subject of negotiations, not confiscation.
      Negotiations were ongoing for almost a half a year.

      Source: https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/fort-sumter


      With their secession declarations came the demands that all United States property be turned over to those states, including military property, and said installations abandoned by United States soldiers, sailors, and marines. The new Lincoln administration sought not to provoke armed conflict but refused to surrender Federal installations to the Confederates. Instead, Lincoln chose to resupply Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor and other forts when required. No arms, munitions, or troops would be sent to the garrisons. Rather, supply ships with food, fodder, and other necessities of life were sent south.

      One attempt to resupply Sumter took place in January but the ship, the Star of the West, was turned away by Rebel guns. Negotiations continued in Charleston between Confederate General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, in command of the Confederate forces there and Maj. Robert Anderson, the Fort Sumter garrison commander. The talks failed to resolve tensions.

      © Copyright Original Source

      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Negotiations were ongoing for almost a half a year.

        Source: https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/fort-sumter


        With their secession declarations came the demands that all United States property be turned over to those states, including military property, and said installations abandoned by United States soldiers, sailors, and marines. The new Lincoln administration sought not to provoke armed conflict but refused to surrender Federal installations to the Confederates. Instead, Lincoln chose to resupply Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor and other forts when required. No arms, munitions, or troops would be sent to the garrisons. Rather, supply ships with food, fodder, and other necessities of life were sent south.

        One attempt to resupply Sumter took place in January but the ship, the Star of the West, was turned away by Rebel guns. Negotiations continued in Charleston between Confederate General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, in command of the Confederate forces there and Maj. Robert Anderson, the Fort Sumter garrison commander. The talks failed to resolve tensions.

        © Copyright Original Source

        So? They still refused to leave. Again Bill, if England refused to leave a garrison that controlled the Boston harbor what would we have done? Yes, kicked them out. The South gave them a number of chances to leave peacefully.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          So? They still refused to leave. Again Bill, if England refused to leave a garrison that controlled the Boston harbor what would we have done? Yes, kicked them out. The South gave them a number of chances to leave peacefully.
          That's my point. The South tried to negotiate after secession. Once the North refused, the South was within their right to expel the invaders.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            That's my point. The South tried to negotiate after secession. Once the North refused, the South was within their right to expel the invaders.
            Oh, OK...
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              Oh, OK...
              I find it sad that people I discuss this with are ignorant that secession happened 6 months before Sumter. They typically think both happened simultaneously.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                That is a lie Shuny, stop lying about me. I'm presenting how the South would view these things, NOWHERE did I say I agree. And there is no Constitutional prohibition against succession, that is a FACT.
                Yes there is, secession was not ruled to be illegal at the time, but has since, in 1869, been ruled to be unconstitutional, which means that it was unconstitutional at the time as well.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Yes there is, secession was not ruled to be illegal at the time, but has since, in 1869, been ruled to be unconstitutional, which means that it was unconstitutional at the time as well.
                  Really? Show it to me in the Constitution, not what some court made up after the fact.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Really? Show it to me in the Constitution, not what some court made up after the fact.
                    That "some court" was the Supreme Court, and how they interpret the constitution takes precedence over your interpretation.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      That "some court" was the Supreme Court, and how they interpret the constitution takes precedence over your interpretation.
                      Again Jim, show me that in the Constitution, after all the Court decided against Dred Scott, and up held racial segregation laws...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Again Jim, show me that in the Constitution, after all the Court decided against Dred Scott, and up held racial segregation laws...
                        In the Articles of the Confederation-the Nations first Constitution, the original states agreed that they were a "Perpetual Union" and so any state entering into that Union was bound by the same agreement. And according to the Supreme Court the Constitution implies that in all it's provisions, the U.S. is an indestructable Union of indestructable States. You may not agree with that interpretation, but you''ll have to make that argument to the Supreme Court.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          In the Articles of the Confederation-the Nations first Constitution, the original states agreed that they were a "Perpetual Union" and so any state entering into that Union was bound by the same agreement. And according to the Supreme Court the Constitution implies that in all it's provisions, the U.S. is an indestructable Union of indestructable States. You may not agree with that interpretation, but you''ll have to make that argument to the Supreme Court.
                          Jim, the Articles of the Confederation are not US law - period. And if you want to go there we can say that the South was following principles found in the Declaration. You have no argument. Also are you saying the Supreme Court is never wrong?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Jim, the Articles of the Confederation are not US law - period. And if you want to go there we can say that the South was following principles found in the Declaration. You have no argument. Also are you saying the Supreme Court is never wrong?
                            There was a continuity of government from 1776 onward. It was argued in the 19th century that the Articles did contain "intent" of the founders. Texas v White was the case referred to.

                            If the CSA won, it would be a moot point.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              I find it sad that people I discuss this with are ignorant that secession happened 6 months before Sumter. They typically think both happened simultaneously.
                              They seceded, and both sides did not really know what to do, each hoping for and working toward an amicable settlement. Mobilizations were half hearted.

                              Fort Sumpter is significant because the dispute over real estate moved both sides into the realization that secession meant a shooting war.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                                They seceded, and both sides did not really know what to do, each hoping for and working toward an amicable settlement. Mobilizations were half hearted.

                                Fort Sumpter is significant because the dispute over real estate moved both sides into the realization that secession meant a shooting war.
                                Right, so if Texas decided to secede we should invade, kill a lot of Texans and force them to stay... Got it...
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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