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Thread: Happy Robert E Lee Day

  1. #151
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Sorry, Jim, but a SCOTUS decision is not retroactive. So, until the SCOTUS decides on something, it is not unconstitutional, and when they decide, it is only unconstitutional from that moment on.
    This was something that you used to learn back in Elementary School. I even remember the example that was used -- if it were decided that wearing the color green was illegal/unconstitutional nobody who wore it prior to that decision could be punished for it.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  3. #152
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=treason+definition&oq=Treason&aqs=chrome.1.0l8.4338j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8



    trea∑son - the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.

    © Copyright Original Source

    How would you describe the Founders of the US?
    . Bloomberg, by comparison, may be the candidate that most of the Founders hoped would arise: a wealthy patrician, much like them, who would use his vast resources and influence to defeat what he views as disruptive elements in the nationís political system.

  4. #153
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    He provoked a conflict that led to 620,000 deaths (although recent research indicates the actual number was 750,000). And while you've been displaying either an inability or unwillingness to comprehend this, one does not need to provoke the bloodiest war in our history in order to show opposition to slavery. There are/were other alternatives.
    He did provoke the war to start, the spark that ignited the armed conflict.

    But if the war was a just war, then it was a war which needed to be fought. Other posters have noted the lag time between secession and hostilities. But that period was not marked by silence and inaction, both sides were hoping for a resolution to the problem.

    Anderson returned fire after being fired on. By the Confederacy. To not return fire would have been a de facto signal to the Citadel that the US military would not stand up to treasonous conduct. Anderson was a graduate of West Point. Before the battle, secession was a constitutional crisis, after Sumter, it was am armed insurrection and rebellion, a war.

    What other avenues were open? Allowing secession would have perpetuated slavery.

  5. #154
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    He did provoke the war to start, the spark that ignited the armed conflict.

    But if the war was a just war, then it was a war which needed to be fought. Other posters have noted the lag time between secession and hostilities. But that period was not marked by silence and inaction, both sides were hoping for a resolution to the problem.

    Anderson returned fire after being fired on. By the Confederacy. To not return fire would have been a de facto signal to the Citadel that the US military would not stand up to treasonous conduct. Anderson was a graduate of West Point. Before the battle, secession was a constitutional crisis, after Sumter, it was am armed insurrection and rebellion, a war.

    What other avenues were open? Allowing secession would have perpetuated slavery.
    As I said, you are either unwilling or unable to see anything between A and Z. It's either coal black or snow white.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

  6. #155
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    As I said, you are either unwilling or unable to see anything between A and Z. It's either coal black or snow white.
    You haven't provided anything, an alternative, between A and Z.

  7. #156
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    This was something that you used to learn back in Elementary School. I even remember the example that was used -- if it were decided that wearing the color green was illegal/unconstitutional nobody who wore it prior to that decision could be punished for it.
    ISTM this is closely akin to the concept of "no ex post facto" laws, which is rather fundamental to our basic notions of justice here in the U.S.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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  8. #157
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    As I said, you are either unwilling or unable to see anything between A and Z. It's either coal black or snow white.
    My post recognized the context, one poster emphasized that secession did not provoke hostilities; whether the rebellion was treasonous; then the legality of secession.

    Anderson abandoned the indefensible position of Fort Moultrie after South Carolina (and Beauregard) demanded the federal troops to withdraw. The threat of force was why Anderson trained the guns toward Charleston and not seaward, in spite of the fact that Anderson did have sympathies for the south.

    Anderson had a duty as a military officer. To dismiss him and his actions at Sumter as "not a hero" is reasonable if and only if the war was not a just war. The neo confederate and lost cause interpretations of history argue that the war was not just.

    The idea of the Civil War as divine retribution for national sin is an idea which goes back to Lincoln. Maybe I am look at A to Z, as well as the discussion here.
    Last edited by simplicio; 01-26-2020 at 12:17 AM.

  9. #158
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    My post recognized the context, one poster emphasized that secession did not provoke hostilities; whether the rebellion was treasonous; then the legality of secession.

    Anderson abandoned the indefensible position of Fort Moultrie after South Carolina (and Beauregard) demanded the federal troops to withdraw. The threat of force was why Anderson trained the guns toward Charleston and not seaward, in spite of the fact that Anderson did have sympathies for the south.

    Anderson had a duty as a military officer. To dismiss him and his actions at Sumter as "not a hero" is reasonable if and only if the war was not a just war. The neo confederate and lost cause interpretations of history argue that the war was not just.

    The idea of the Civil War as divine retribution for national sin is an idea which goes back to Lincoln. Maybe I am look at A to Z, as well as the discussion here.
    Anderson took it upon himself to move to Charleston and turn the cannons on the city. The commanders of all the other garrisons withdrew. Considering the negative reaction toward Anderson's move by his superiors -- all the way up to the president -- this is indicative that his move ran counter to what they wanted him to do, namely withdraw like the others.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

  10. #159
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Anderson took it upon himself to move to Charleston and turn the cannons on the city. The commanders of all the other garrisons withdrew. Considering the negative reaction toward Anderson's move by his superiors -- all the way up to the president -- this is indicative that his move ran counter to what they wanted him to do, namely withdraw like the others.
    Anderson was sent to Charleston as commander after the election of Lincoln. He wrote the Army's Artillery doctrine, including siege and coastal Artillery.

    He was given orders to defend the fort, and when a merchant ship tried to resupply the fort (using a navy vessel was thought to be too provocative) took fire, Anderson chose caution and did not defend the ship in January '61. Anderson showed restraint, did not want to spark the war.

    Anderson spent the winter completing the fort, an activity which was known to all, Presidents Buchannan and then Lincoln were negotiating with the governor of South Carolina, and Fort Sumter was a fly in the ointment.

    Beauregard negotiated with Anderson, they were close friends, and Anderson offered to withdraw on April 15. The offer was rejected. Fort Sumter was fired upon April 12, a date often given for the start of the war. The first shots were fired by Confederates.

    Anderson was a cautious officer and did not take war lightly. Not so sure the reaction was negative.

    Fort Pickens in Florida was manned after federal troops abandoned the indefensible Fort Barrancas which was on the mainland. Fort Sumter was state of the art fortification and had strategic importance. Other garrisons withdrew because they did not have orders to defend, or were situated on land and so were not easily defended as an island is.

    Might want to find some sources which are more historically accurate

  11. #160
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Anderson was sent to Charleston as commander after the election of Lincoln. He wrote the Army's Artillery doctrine, including siege and coastal Artillery.

    He was given orders to defend the fort, and when a merchant ship tried to resupply the fort (using a navy vessel was thought to be too provocative) took fire, Anderson chose caution and did not defend the ship in January '61. Anderson showed restraint, did not want to spark the war.

    Anderson spent the winter completing the fort, an activity which was known to all, Presidents Buchannan and then Lincoln were negotiating with the governor of South Carolina, and Fort Sumter was a fly in the ointment.

    Beauregard negotiated with Anderson, they were close friends, and Anderson offered to withdraw on April 15. The offer was rejected. Fort Sumter was fired upon April 12, a date often given for the start of the war. The first shots were fired by Confederates.

    Anderson was a cautious officer and did not take war lightly. Not so sure the reaction was negative.

    Fort Pickens in Florida was manned after federal troops abandoned the indefensible Fort Barrancas which was on the mainland. Fort Sumter was state of the art fortification and had strategic importance. Other garrisons withdrew because they did not have orders to defend, or were situated on land and so were not easily defended as an island is.

    Might want to find some sources which are more historically accurate
    He was already in Charleston before Lincoln was elected, therefore Lincoln could not have told him to go there.

    As for Fort Sumter, it wasn't even finished despite being started on in 1829 with the interior full of construction gear and it having only a little over a tenth of its slated 135 cannons (IIRC Anderson brought more with him). And being made of brick and mortar it was already obsolete by 1861 and hardly state-of-the-art.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

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