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Thread: Communist Ideology in America's Security Agencies

  1. #51
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    The video's too long. But how does she square the contradiction of intelligence embracing a communist/Stalinist ideology on one hand, as she claims, and spreading fearmonger about Russia and the red scare to ridiculous levels to the public on the other?
    Marxists had internal conflicts, the big conflict between Stalin and Trotsky is well-established. Neocons (Irving Kristol is the big, big example) were Trotskyites and Trotskyites hated Stalin and his USSR.

    Trotskyites branded themselves as 'neocons' and were aggressive against the USSR, but for them it was always an intra-Communism struggle.
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    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    It is not an exaggeration to say the neoconservatism is Trotskyism, neocons are Marxist.

    The Trotskyist pedigree of neoconservatism is no secret; the original neocon, Irving Kristol, acknowledges it with relish: “I regard myself to have been a young Trostkyite and I have not a single bitter memory.” Nor is there any doubt about the influence — one might almost say hegemony — of “former Communists” on the post-war conservative movement. Just read the words of one neocon, Seymour Martin Lipset:

    From the anti-Stalinists who became conservatives — including James Burnham, Whittaker Chambers, and Irving Kristol — the Right gained a political education and, in some cases, an injection of passion. The ex-radicals brought with them the knowledge that ideological movements must have journals and magazines to articulate their perspectives. In 1955, for example, William F. Buckley, Jr., launched National Review at the urging of Willi Schlamm, a former German Communist. In its early years, National Review was largely written and edited by the Buckley family and a handful of former Communists, Trotskyists, and socialists, such as Burnham and Chambers. It played a major role in creating the Goldwaterite and Reaganite New Right and in stimulating an anti-Soviet foreign policy.
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2001/11/...e-for-trotsky/
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  3. #53
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    It is not an exaggeration to say the neoconservatism is Trotskyism, neocons are Marxist.
    Certainly no communist could ever see the error of his ways!

    Have you actually read anything from Whitaker Chambers?

    And Lew Rockwell is an interesting source for a real Christian to use to show neocons are pinkos!

  4. #54
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Certainly no communist could ever see the error of his ways!

    Have you actually read anything from Whitaker Chambers?
    What drives leftists to forge new careers by siding with their former enemies? These apostates don’t simply retool or change course — they make an epic transformation, joining the very forces they once sought to upend. From Whittaker Chambers to David Horowitz, they customarily announce their volte face and market themselves as insiders ready to blow the whistle on their former comrades.

    Often a team of elders, who already made the ideological switch, appears to bless them and ease their transition, providing new publishing outlets and career opportunities. In books, articles, and public appearances, these former reds beat a noisy retreat from their old commitments, displaying an unearned confidence in their new view of the world and a hair-on-fire intolerance for those still adhering to their prior convictions. Oddly, after convicting themselves for a long record of naiveté, ignorance, disloyalty, and worse, these born-again conservatives expect us to trust their latest political judgments.


    And Lew Rockwell is an interesting source for a real Christian to use to show neocons are pinkos!
    What would Tweb be without wormtongues questioning if other people are 'real Christians'?
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  5. #55
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Marxists had internal conflicts, the big conflict between Stalin and Trotsky is well-established. Neocons (Irving Kristol is the big, big example) were Trotskyites and Trotskyites hated Stalin and his USSR.

    Trotskyites branded themselves as 'neocons' and were aggressive against the USSR, but for them it was always an intra-Communism struggle.
    I've always considered neocons a totally different breed from actual constitutional conservatives. Like I view someone like Rand Paul as a true conservative with an ideology completely different from a Lindsey Graham, the latter of whom wouldn't hesitate to burn the constitution if it was necessary to give more leeway to the military and intelligence apparatus.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  6. #56
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    What drives leftists to forge new careers by siding with their former enemies? These apostates don’t simply retool or change course — they make an epic transformation, joining the very forces they once sought to upend. From Whittaker Chambers to David Horowitz, they customarily announce their volte face and market themselves as insiders ready to blow the whistle on their former comrades.

    Often a team of elders, who already made the ideological switch, appears to bless them and ease their transition, providing new publishing outlets and career opportunities. In books, articles, and public appearances, these former reds beat a noisy retreat from their old commitments, displaying an unearned confidence in their new view of the world and a hair-on-fire intolerance for those still adhering to their prior convictions. Oddly, after convicting themselves for a long record of naiveté, ignorance, disloyalty, and worse, these born-again conservatives expect us to trust their latest political judgments.
    So, no, nothing from Chambers himself. And I think it pertinent that you see Wm F Bickley as a hapless tool of the Trotskyites! I would ask if you've ever read anything by Buckley, but I think it likely that you would not answer directly, preferring to post from Lew Rockwell.

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/09/...of-christians/

    How many of those ideas would be condemned as antichrist by Christians here on tweb?

    Is repentance really possible? I think it is


    What would Tweb be without wormtongues questioning if other people are 'real Christians'?
    Worm tongues?

  7. #57
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    People could be against Russia while still being interested in Communism/Socialism. People that like Communism often think that the previous failures simply mean that Communism just hasn't been correctly implemented yet.
    socialismfork.jpg

  8. #58
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    And welcome to the paranoid world of today's Christian conservatism, where Wm F Buckley is a pinko. But is it either Christian or conservative, or more like the twilight zone?

    Maybe no one has seen the film Dr Strangelove, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb. An OP on communist infiltration of the US government becomes an argument against neocons!

    Neoconservatism was a reaction against the new left, and collected hardliner cold warriors! It did pick up a lot of former socialists, which makes sense, according to neocons.

    If socialism is not the best thing to come along since Plato, then we would expect to see disillusioned leftists leave the communists and socialists for a conservative political stance. They were leaving behind the socialism, not smuggling socialist views into conservatism.

    And I have to add that I am not a neocon (except for a period after 9-11 when everyone was a neocon), but I have great admiration for some neocon writers. Hey, anyone who warns about the unintended consequences of liberls' policies can't be all wrong.
    Last edited by simplicio; 01-23-2020 at 01:39 AM.

  9. #59
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    With regard to economic outcomes, socialism has historically done very well. It's the authoritarianism associated with one-party-state-communism implementations of non-democratic versions of socialism that have been historically problematic.

    Russia and China were among the poorest countries in the world when they became socialist, the USSR quickly grew economically to be powerful enough to challenge the US for global dominance, and today China does the same. In recent decades the country with the fastest rate of economic growth in the world was democratic socialist Bolivia.

    The historical downsides of socialist regimes have come if they abolished democracy and moved to a dictatorship. In those instances they've typically suffered the same sorts of problems common to dictatorships throughout history. In cases where they've kept to democratic socialism, it's been fine. The cartoon seems pretty ignorant of all the times it's worked fine.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    With regard to economic outcomes, socialism has historically done very well. It's the authoritarianism associated with one-party-state-communism implementations of non-democratic versions of socialism that have been historically problematic.

    Russia and China were among the poorest countries in the world when they became socialist, the USSR quickly grew economically to be powerful enough to challenge the US for global dominance, and today China does the same. In recent decades the country with the fastest rate of economic growth in the world was democratic socialist Bolivia.

    The historical downsides of socialist regimes have come if they abolished democracy and moved to a dictatorship. In those instances they've typically suffered the same sorts of problems common to dictatorships throughout history. In cases where they've kept to democratic socialism, it's been fine. The cartoon seems pretty ignorant of all the times it's worked fine.
    I think you have that a bit historically backwards. It was when China reformed to a more diversified economy in the 70s that they began to prosper. Same is true for Russia at the turn of the millennia. Socialism devastated Russia prior to that time.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  11. Amen Sparko amen'd this post.

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