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The Impeachment Trial

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Whatever you say, Sam.

    The fact is that Trump's A-Team knows the law far better than either of us, and the precedent cited is making up a part of their opening arguments.
    Trump's "A-Team" has lost these legal arguments in every single court case they've tried them in.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      Trump's "A-Team" has lost these legal arguments in every single court case they've tried them in.

      --Sam
      In fact, it hasn't been tested in court because Schiff and his gang of crooks withdrew the subpoenas as soon they were challenged.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        In fact, it hasn't been tested in court because Schiff and his gang of crooks withdrew the subpoenas as soon they were challenged.
        Must've been difficult to read the cited article and believe it supports your points while ignoring the content.

        Schiff is currently on the Senate floor explaining patiently how the Kupperman subpoena applies directly to the McGahn subpoena case. Which I will remind you, the Trump administration has lost twice.


        ETA: Mea culpa: the McGahn appellate case is still pending. The Trump has lost twice on subpoenas relating to document production. It's lost once on compelling witnesses honoring subpoenas.


        --Sam
        Last edited by Sam; 01-21-2020, 05:23 PM.
        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

        Comment


        • #64
          Um... Trump's team didn't lose the Kupperman case. His lawsuit was dismissed but only because the House withdrew the subpoena.

          As for Schiff, Jay Sekulow schooled him by quoting Schiff's own words back to him.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Um... Trump's team didn't lose the Kupperman case. His lawsuit was dismissed but only because the House withdrew the subpoena.

            As for Schiff, Jay Sekulow schooled him by quoting Schiff's own words back to him.
            An impressive inability to follow both legal analysis and discussion topics goin' on here. Kupperman's suit mirrored McGahn's in that both were contesting a lawful subpoena on the grounds that the WH had asserted complete immunity from even appearing before the House in pursuit of a subpoena.

            That legal argument was soundly rejected in McGahn's case and will very likely lose on appeal shortly.

            I say this for the benefit of others.

            --Sam
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • #66
              The McGahn case will probably ultimately be decided by the Supreme Court.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #67
                As usual, this is required reading. The set-up here is Schumer's motion to present new witnesses and documents during the trial:

                The primary reason Chuck Schumer has to make this ridiculous effort for more evidence, is how the House never established their ability to enforce subpoenas via “Judicial Enforcement Authority”. The failure of a full House vote to authorize the House Judiciary Committee to pursue evidence -via enforceable subpoenas- was a defect by design of Nancy Pelosi’s decision to initiate an impeachment inquiry by her decree, not an authorizing vote.

                CTH noted this structural issue last August, and the issue remained throughout the heavily manipulated proceedings. None of the House requests for testimony or documents held any enforcement authority because the House did not follow the constitutional process.

                The House was not issuing subpoenas, it was issuing letters requesting voluntary witness participation and document production. Recently the DOJ Office of Legal Counsel explained this issue in a lengthy legal finding that leads to the same conclusion.

                BACKSTORY – Last year House Democrat leadership took a climate assessment of democrat House members and Speaker Pelosi announced they would not hold a House impeachment authorization vote. As a direct and specific consequence all committee subpoenas did not carry a penalty for non-compliance.

                “Lawful subpoenas”, literally require an enforcement mechanism; that’s the “poena” part of the word. The enforcement mechanism is a judicial penalty, and that penalty can only be created if the full House voted to authorize an impeachment inquiry, and charged the House Judiciary Committee with the authority therein.

                Absent the vote to authorize, the Legislative Branch never established compulsion authority (aka judicial enforcement authority), as they attempted to work through their quasi-constitutional “impeachment inquiry” process.

                Instead of subpoenas, Adam Schiff (House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence); and Chairman Eliot L. Engel (House Committee on Foreign Affairs) were only sending out request letters. The compliance was discretionary based on the outlook of the recipient.

                There was no penalty that can be associated with the House demands because the Legislative Branch did not established compulsion authority (aka judicial enforcement authority), as they worked through their non-constitutional “impeachment inquiry” process.

                It has long been established by SCOTUS that Congress has lawful (judicial authority) subpoena powers pursuant to its implied responsibility of legislative oversight. However, that only applies to the powers enumerated in A1§8. Neither foreign policy (Ukraine) nor impeachment have any nexus to A1§8. The customary Legislative Branch subpoena power is limited to their legislative purpose.

                There is an elevated level of subpoena, a power made possible by SCOTUS precedent, that carries inherent penalties for non-compliance, and is specifically allowed for impeachment investigations. However, that level of elevated House authority required a full House authorization vote, and only applies to the House Judiciary Committee as empowered.

                In 2019 the Legislative Branch was NOT expressing their “impeachment authority” as part of the Legislative Branch purpose. So that raised the issue of an entirely different type of subpoena:… A demand from congress that penetrates the constitutional separation of powers; and further penetrates the legal authority of Executive Branch executive privilege.

                It was separately established by SCOTUS during the Nixon impeachment investigation that *IF* the full House votes to have the Judiciary Committee commence an impeachment investigation, then the Judiciary Committee has subpoena power that can overcome executive privilege claims.

                There was NO VOTE to create that level of subpoena power.

                As a consequence, the House did not create a process to penetrate the constitutionally inherent separation of powers, and/or, the legally recognized firewall known as ‘executive privilege’.

                https://theconservativetreehouse.com...achment-flaws/
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Sounds like a great rule --- we actually have a "no technology at the table" rule.
                  I normally have breakfast in the kitchen and watch some news but today is our sons first day at school and he was crying that he didn’t want to go so my wife made me go and talk to him. Now I have to buy a Nintendo Wii U before I go home.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
                    I normally have breakfast in the kitchen and watch some news but today is our sons first day at school and he was crying that he didn’t want to go so my wife made me go and talk to him. Now I have to buy a Nintendo Wii U before I go home.

                    ... You sure you're not supposed to buying a Nintendo Switch?
                    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      ... You sure you're not supposed to buying a Nintendo Switch?
                      Used consoles and games are much cheaper than buying new. I keep telling myself that I could save a lot of money if I had the discipline to keep myself one console generation behind. But I don't.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        Used consoles and games are much cheaper than buying new. I keep telling myself that I could save a lot of money if I had the discipline to keep myself one console generation behind. But I don't.
                        Definitely good reasons to buy the last generation consoles ... you just gotta be sure that's what you're supposed to be bringin' home.

                        That said, going Switch over Wii U is definitely worth it, if affordable. Huge, categorical improvement.
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          ... You sure you're not supposed to buying a Nintendo Switch?
                          Oh god he just said Nintendo. That could mean anything!

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
                            I normally have breakfast in the kitchen and watch some news but today is our sons first day at school and he was crying that he didn’t want to go so my wife made me go and talk to him. Now I have to buy a Nintendo Wii U before I go home.
                            I got one I can sell you cheap!

                            I'll never forget the day my wife told me our granddaughter was going home from Church with another couple to play with his Wii.

                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
                              Oh god he just said Nintendo. That could mean anything!
                              Friend, I am telling you this for your own health, sanity, and relationship with your son:

                              He means a Nintendo Switch. Probably with Smash Bros. or Pokemon Sword.

                              --Sam

                              ETA: also pleassse refrain from using God's name flippantly! It's among our most sacred treasures.
                              Last edited by Sam; 01-21-2020, 10:01 PM.
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Used consoles and games are much cheaper than buying new. I keep telling myself that I could save a lot of money if I had the discipline to keep myself one console generation behind. But I don't.
                                I have a lot of old consoles in our garage because of that. The resell value doesn’t seem worth it, I’d rather keep it in the garage gathering dust in case I want to play it in the future. Last console game I played was destiny on Xbox one and I only play dota overlords on mobile now so that’s cheap.

                                Comment

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