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The Impeachment Trial

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Meh... only in part







    I hear there are a few principled Democrats who are not stupid enough to be put on record as going along with this sham impeachment (as far as removal), and THAT may save the day.
    I don’t think you appreciate the scope of Trump’s wrongdoing. If this is not impeachable, then impeachment is a useless remedy for any POTUS crime.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Even some Dems have said that ---

      If all it does is support the Dem's 'quid pro quo' charge, and
      The Repubs still think that's not impeachable, then
      there is nothing Bolton can say to move the needle.
      One of the 6 key facts put forward by the defense was that no witnesses was able to testify that the hold in aid was linked to the investigation announcement (which is not a good argument by the way). Bolton’s testimony, if true, gets rid of that defense.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sam View Post
        You've asserted that Bolton can't deny anything but have not grounded that in any sort of case law or contract clause. I've noted that such a prohibition doesn't make sense.
        Er, no. It makes a lot of sense. Bolton's book is being vetted to make sure he's not saying anything that's unsuitable for release to the public. Until that process is complete, he can't know what he may or may not say - that's why the book is being vetted!

        And, as previously noted, the whole point is moot, because the funds were released prior to the deadline without any quid pro quo having taken place. Feel free to keep screaming about it, however. All that crying "Wolf!" is bound to do some good, right?
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          I don’t think you appreciate the scope of Trump’s wrongdoing. If this is not impeachable, then impeachment is a useless remedy for any POTUS crime.
          Impeachment has been weaponized to attempt to get rid of anybody "the other side" doesn't like. Impeachment has become a joke, as prophesied by the honorable Chuck Schumer many moons ago.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Er, no. It makes a lot of sense. Bolton's book is being vetted to make sure he's not saying anything that's unsuitable for release to the public. Until that process is complete, he can't know what he may or may not say - that's why the book is being vetted!
            That this needs to be explained is mind boggling.

            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            And, as previously noted, the whole point is moot, because the funds were released prior to the deadline without any quid pro quo having taken place. Feel free to keep screaming about it, however. All that crying "Wolf!" is bound to do some good, right?
            Wait for it...

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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            • Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
              One of the 6 key facts put forward by the defense was that no witnesses was able to testify that the hold in aid was linked to the investigation announcement (which is not a good argument by the way). Bolton’s testimony, if true, gets rid of that defense.
              So, let's be real. The supposed object of this exercise is the removal of Trump from the Presidency. Do you REALLY believe there's even a snowball's chance of that happening?
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Er, no. It makes a lot of sense. Bolton's book is being vetted to make sure he's not saying anything that's unsuitable for release to the public. Until that process is complete, he can't know what he may or may not say - that's why the book is being vetted!
                And Trump is the ultimate declassification authority. If declassifying *something* allows Bolton to dispute this horribly damaging leak he'd have done that already.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Impeachment has been weaponized to attempt to get rid of anybody "the other side" doesn't like. Impeachment has become a joke, as prophesied by the honorable Chuck Schumer many moons ago.
                  You've had Democratic Congressmen openly acknowledging that their motive for impeaching was to try to hurt Trump's chances at re-election. I believe the most notable examples hails from down in or about your neck of the woods.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    So, let's be real. The supposed object of this exercise is the removal of Trump from the Presidency. Do you REALLY believe there's even a snowball's chance of that happening?
                    This is incorrect. The point is to increase the cost of improper behavior so as to discourage it. When that improper behavior rises to a certain level removal from office is the appropriate penalty but even going through an impeachment can have a significant political cost.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
                      One of the 6 key facts put forward by the defense was that no witnesses was able to testify that the hold in aid was linked to the investigation announcement (which is not a good argument by the way). Bolton’s testimony, if true, gets rid of that defense.
                      No it doesn't, because Ukraine was never told about it, and nobody who had any direct dealings with Ukraine was told about it (per testimony given to the House). Whatever Trump might have told Bolton in a confidential meeting that was never acted on is irrelevant.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                        And Trump is the ultimate declassification authority. If declassifying *something* allows Bolton to dispute this horribly damaging leak he'd have done that already.
                        Declassification isn't that easy. The president can't just snap his fingers and say, "Declassified!" There's a process that must be followed with all relevant agencies having a say in whether or not it's safe to do so.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Not surprised you're confused, it's a complicated case. Zlochevsky's assets were actually siezed on Feb. 2 2015, they were then unseized on Dec. 25th 2015 because of a change in jurisdiction. The case was transfered from the PGO to NABU, the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, and under NABU the siezure was reinstated on Feb. 4th 2016. That had nothing to do with the UK seizure of 23 million. Republicans confused the reinstatement of the siezure in Feb 4th 2016 with the original siezure in Feb 2nd 2015. So, Shokin was no longer on the case at that time and Biden had nothing to do with it.
                          Wrong once again. Shokin was fired in late March. At this point, I can't tell if you're just chronically ignorant about facts and details, or you're willingly throwing out false info.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Extortion in that sense, a quid pro quo, would not be illegal if in the interests of the U.S. In other words to offer aid with requirments attached is not in and of itself illegal, or as M Mulvaney would put it, we do this all the time. So yes, motive makes all the difference.
                            OK so given that, if Trump did tell Ukraine they had to investigate the Burisma mess, that would be legal unless he did it for personal motives, right?

                            So far they have not proven Trump did anything for personal motives. That is just the Democrats accusations. Which is denied by everyone directly involved, including Ukraine. You keep screaming "extortion! he kept the money from Ukraine to force an investigation" -- well so what? Unless you can prove he did it for personal gain, it is perfectly legal as you just admitted.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              Trump's defense team disagrees, and they presented an excellent argument that the Bidens should be investigated. So now the Democrats have to weigh whether it's worth it to call Bolton in exchange for the defense putting Hunter on the stand.
                              Lets approach this from another angle. What we know is that Zelensky is keen to fight corruption and he wants to keep Trump happy.

                              Trump has asked Zelensky for a favour by looking into Burisma and Crowdstrike. Trump also stated that he thinks Zelensky should investigate Burisma in front of the media several times.

                              You state there is an excellent argument for the Bidens to be investigated.

                              Question is then why didnt Zelensky announce investigations to keep Trump happy? If the Bidens alleged corruption was credible enough to justify Trump withholding aid then what was stopping Zelensky from making these announcements?

                              How quickly did Ukraine make the unprompted announcement regarding investigations into the alleged stalking of Ambassador Yovanovitch?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Declassification isn't that easy. The president can't just snap his fingers and say, "Declassified!" There's a process that must be followed with all relevant agencies having a say in whether or not it's safe to do so.
                                From here


                                "There’s no question that the president has broad authority to declassify almost anything at any time without any process, [trimmed irrelevant discussion of something else].



                                And whatever that process allegedly is, he's had 3 days during the single event which will most define his presidency to get it done.

                                Comment

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