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The Impeachment Trial

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  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    In some states, if someone calls the police to report domestic violence, the police are required by law to press charges even if the victim declines.
    Thanks MM
    "Any sufficiently advanced technology, is indistinguishable from Magic!"
    -- Arthur C. Clark

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      More than one person has been convicted because of a bloody fingerprint.
      Yes... the idea that circumstantial evidence is inherently vague or weak is a common misconception. However, "I heard from a guy who heard from a guy" hearsay is not circumstantial evidence. At best, it only proves that everybody was dealing in the same rumors, but it doesn't prove that the rumors are true, especially when a firsthand witness testified to a direct statement from the President himself which contradicts the office gossip that was apparently going around at the time.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        More than one person has been convicted because of a bloody fingerprint.
        How many are convicted on only the Bloody Fingerprint and no other hard evidence? Just Curious
        "Any sufficiently advanced technology, is indistinguishable from Magic!"
        -- Arthur C. Clark

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          The President only said no "qiud pro quo" after hearing that his "quid pro quo" scheme was uncovered. He wasn't asked by Sondland on that phone call what he wanted in return for military aid, he was simply asked what he wanted Zelensky to do. He got caught, he knew it, and so denied it without even being asked about it. Very obvious acknowledgement of being caught. You didn't expect that he would admit to a quid pro quo, did you? He didn't even admit to what it was he wanted Zelensky to do in that call, because we know now that what he wanted Zelensky to do was to go on CNN and announce investigations into the Bidens.
          So many inconsistencies.

          First JimL you have not provided any real evidence that there was a "quid pro quo".

          You are assuming as to the motive of the president when he talked to Sondland. Hard evidence not assumption. Assumptions are not allowed as evidence in a real court.

          The Ukrainians who are supposed to be the victims said there was no "quid pro quo", when the victim says they where not victimized no crime exist. (Since this is not a domestic abuse case Watermelon's example does not apply.

          No military aid was with held that was given in the form of anti tank missiles, What was withheld was Money that was to be appropriated for the next quarter, the Ukrainians couldn't even spend it for a while after it was approved.

          Thank you for admitting that Trump did not ask for a "quid pro quo" on the phone call (Shifty lied about that in his opening). And Zelensky said there was no "quid pro quo" no victim no crime. So other then the call (Which disproves your case and proves ours) what real evidence do you have JimL? Citations please no more speculation no more assumption.

          Saying the same thing over and over does not make it true.
          "Any sufficiently advanced technology, is indistinguishable from Magic!"
          -- Arthur C. Clark

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            It was all based on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th-hand hearsay except for Gordon Sondland who is the only witness to talk directly to the President, and he said that Trump was "crystal clear" that he didn't want any quid pro quo. This is confirmed by a contemporaneous text message from Sondland to Taylor, and that evidence alone trumps all the office gossip "evidence" presented by the other witnesses.

            And I think it's a stretch to say that a single politician breaking with his party qualifies as "bipartisan".
            MM just noticed a discrepancy in your last statement It was only 1/2 a bipartisan vote he voted down the contempt charge. So in a way he voted against removal in that case. Yah, this is petty details but isn't that what Watermelon and JimL are doing.
            Last edited by The Pendragon; 02-25-2020, 05:02 PM.
            "Any sufficiently advanced technology, is indistinguishable from Magic!"
            -- Arthur C. Clark

            Comment


            • Originally posted by The Pendragon View Post
              So many inconsistencies.

              First JimL you have not provided any real evidence that there was a "quid pro quo".

              You are assuming as to the motive of the president when he talked to Sondland. Hard evidence not assumption. Assumptions are not allowed as evidence in a real court.

              The Ukrainians who are supposed to be the victims said there was no "quid pro quo", when the victim says they where not victimized no crime exist. (Since this is not a domestic abuse case Watermelon's example does not apply.

              No military aid was with held that was given in the form of anti tank missiles, What was withheld was Money that was to be appropriated for the next quarter, the Ukrainians couldn't even spend it for a while after it was approved.

              Thank you for admitting that Trump did not ask for a "quid pro quo" on the phone call (Shifty lied about that in his opening). And Zelensky said there was no "quid pro quo" no victim no crime. So other then the call (Which disproves your case and proves ours) what real evidence do you have JimL? Citations please no more speculation no more assumption.

              Saying the same thing over and over does not make it true.
              This has been explained over and over again and anyone paying attention knows of the corroborating evidence of a quid pro quo, of the attempt at hiding the scheme from Congress, and the efforts to obstruct the investigation itself. It's a done deal, the biased and unprincipled republican Senate fixed the trial and aquited Trump. It's old news, if you're to naive, or blinded by your bias to see it, that's on you. Move on!
              Last edited by JimL; 02-25-2020, 06:03 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Let's put this very simply:

                1) Firsthand witness says, "I was told directly by the President himself that he didn't want a quid pro quo."
                2) A dozen secondhand witnesses say, "I heard from a guy who heard from a guy that the President wanted a quid pro quo."

                #1 will win in court every single time no matter how many "witnesses" say the latter.
                But that’s not what happened here is it? By the way your 1) is what hearsay actually looks like. The witness is testifying to the truth of statement made by someone else to them - that’s hearsay.

                Number 2 should be - a dozen witnesses testified to having witnessed events that conflict with the presidents statement said to the first witness and support the allegations.

                They didn’t testify about hearing from someone that trump wanted a quid pro quo, they testified to events they directly witnessed that supported the allegation that trump wanted a quid pro quo.

                It’s like saying one witness testified that the defendant told him that he didn’t do the crime. Then a dozen witnesses testify that they witnessed events that are consistent with the defendant having committed the crime.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
                  But that’s not what happened here is it? By the way your 1) is what hearsay actually looks like. The witness is testifying to the truth of statement made by someone else to them - that’s hearsay.

                  Number 2 should be - a dozen witnesses testified to having witnessed events that conflict with the presidents statement said to the first witness and support the allegations.

                  They didn’t testify about hearing from someone that trump wanted a quid pro quo, they testified to events they directly witnessed that supported the allegation that trump wanted a quid pro quo.

                  It’s like saying one witness testified that the defendant told him that he didn’t do the crime. Then a dozen witnesses testify that they witnessed events that are consistent with the defendant having committed the crime.
                  No witnesses testified to having seen anything consistent with Trump having committed a crime. I don't know what you're basing this hypothetical on.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by The Pendragon View Post
                    So, Watermelon your adding domestic abuse to the list of crimes under the abuse of power charge. Evidence please! We need citations. This is why abuse of power need to have the crimes of abuses enumerated under the heading of abuse of power for it to have teeth. Abuse of Power is not a crime or wrong doing the crimes listed under it are what matter.

                    The victims testimony is different from the victim admitting that they where the victim of a crime. I have a brother that was the victim of domestic violence, he declined to press charges and the case was dropped (He basically said that he was not victimized).

                    Sparko or One Bad Pig can correct me, but I think the only exception to the "Victim saying they are not a victim, no crime or wrong doing" is the victim does not have the mental acuity to understand that they are a victim.



                    Watermelon, here are the facts what Schiff claimed was a lie, both can be true at the same time. What Shifty Shif said in his opening statement for the Impeachment Inquiry did not match the transcript of the call, this is the definition of telling a falsehood, I.E. Lying. I don't want to try a prove a negative so please if Shifty gave an accurate version of the call please list all the things that Shifty said that match the call. Please give citations.

                    Shifty had the transcript he did not need to translate it, His version of the call was not a translation it was a very bad Mind reading act.
                    A crime is considered an offense against the state which is why the state brings the charges against the defendant. The rationale is that the act itself is deemed worthy of punishment by society regardless of what the victim wants.

                    I used domestic abuse as an example since in most cases it’s one persons word vs another’s so if the victim happens to recant then there is no evidence to prosecute.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      This has been explained over and over again and anyone paying attention knows of the corroborating evidence of a quid pro quo, of the attempt at hiding the scheme from Congress, and the efforts to obstruct the investigation itself. It's a done deal, the biased and unprincipled republican Senate fixed the trial and aquited Trump. It's old news, if you're to naive, or blinded by your bias to see it, that's on you. Move on!
                      Evidence JimL, you have refused to give citations of real evidence.

                      You put out assumption after assumption and call it hard evidence you are worse the Watermelon who uses Probable Cause as evidence.

                      Neither of you have given us any evidence that holds up in a Court of Law. That might be because you don't have it. I know that Shifty Shiff did not have it. All the witnesses said that they had no first hand information. They never talked to Trump about his motives, Only one said that he ask Trump and Trump said no quid pro quo, You JimL excuse that as Trump Lying, but you don't present any evidence to prove your assumption.


                      It is you JimL, Watermelon, and the Shifty Shiff Democrats that are naïve. Shifty Shiff isn't ever smart enough to win in a Kangaroo Court that he rigged himself. You and your group are following behind because Orange Man Bad. Remember you have never given us any real hard evidence, it's time for you to put-up, or shut up and admit that you have no case.

                      No More Pick-a-Little, Talk-a-Little, Pick, Pick, Pick, Talk, Talk-a-Little
                      "Any sufficiently advanced technology, is indistinguishable from Magic!"
                      -- Arthur C. Clark

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
                        By the way your 1) is what hearsay actually looks like. The witness is testifying to the truth of statement made by someone else to them - thatÂ’s hearsay.
                        Again nice try, what Sondland was testifying about what he was told "First Hand", Hearsay is the other witnesses saying that they heard for someone that Trump said. In other words the witnesses that are once, twice, or three or four times removed from the conversation. In other words they where not there to hear the actual conversation and had to hear it form someone else.

                        Again, I'll ask do you have any hard evidence that will hold up in a Court of Law? As with JimL I need to ask you to put up or shut up and admit you are wrong.

                        No More Pick-a-Little, Talk-a-Little, Pick, Pick, Pick, Talk, Talk-a-Little

                        You and JimL are like the Chickens in song Cluck, Cluck, Cluck. Just clucking around making no since.
                        "Any sufficiently advanced technology, is indistinguishable from Magic!"
                        -- Arthur C. Clark

                        Comment


                        • I thought I'd explain why I think that hard evidence is important.

                          Simply Put the evidence needs to be strong enough to get 2/3 of the Senate to vote for removal, this is a high bar to make. I'll put it this way, for a normal criminal trial the prosecution needs to convince the jury of guilt "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt". In my opinion in an impeachment trial that is raised to "Beyond a Shadow of Doubt". But lets just stay with "Reasonable Doubt". Hearsay is not evidence because it produces doubt as to its accuracy. And as with Shifty Shiff if its all you have reasonable doubt is easy to prove by giving alternate explanations to the hearsay, also since its not aloud in a Court of law there was no evidence for the prosecution to use.
                          "Any sufficiently advanced technology, is indistinguishable from Magic!"
                          -- Arthur C. Clark

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by The Pendragon View Post
                            Again nice try, what Sondland was testifying about what he was told "First Hand", Hearsay is the other witnesses saying that they heard for someone that Trump said. In other words the witnesses that are once, twice, or three or four times removed from the conversation. In other words they where not there to hear the actual conversation and had to hear it form someone else.

                            Again, I'll ask do you have any hard evidence that will hold up in a Court of Law? As with JimL I need to ask you to put up or shut up and admit you are wrong.

                            No More Pick-a-Little, Talk-a-Little, Pick, Pick, Pick, Talk, Talk-a-Little

                            You and JimL are like the Chickens in song Cluck, Cluck, Cluck. Just clucking around making no since.
                            Please get an understanding of what hearsay is before you criticize others. Ask any lawyer whether you could use Sondlands statement that Trump told him he wanted ’no quid pro quo’ as evidence that there was no quid pro quo in court and see what they say.

                            Someone using another persons statement to prove the truth of that statement is the definition of hearsay. Im a lawyer myself and your perception of how the courts work is detached from reality.

                            Again I will state that the witness testimonies are evidence that would be admissible in court, the fact that you and other trump supporters don’t accept it doesn’t mean there’s no evidence.

                            Reading what you claim the witnesses testified about makes it clear that you haven’t understood or heard the evidence they provided. You can either read their testimonies again or the summary in the house report and try again. Dismissing it all as third or fourth hand hearsay is being just plain lazy or ignorant and most importantly, not true. That’s why so many legal scholars and lawyers rightfully claimed that the evidence was overwhelming and why many republican senators reluctantly conceded that Trump did the wrong thing.

                            Sticking your head in the sand and being oblivious to the evidence won’t make it go away.

                            Using your standard of evidence on Hillary or Schiff or the Bidens would mean there’s absolutely no evidence of any wrongdoing by any of them.

                            Rules of evidence is rather complex and it’s not uncommon for evidence to be admitted or not based on how it’s argued. Having said that, it’s not difficult to argue the relevance for any of the witnesses that have testified if this had been a trial.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by The Pendragon View Post
                              I thought I'd explain why I think that hard evidence is important.

                              Simply Put the evidence needs to be strong enough to get 2/3 of the Senate to vote for removal, this is a high bar to make. I'll put it this way, for a normal criminal trial the prosecution needs to convince the jury of guilt "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt". In my opinion in an impeachment trial that is raised to "Beyond a Shadow of Doubt". But lets just stay with "Reasonable Doubt". Hearsay is not evidence because it produces doubt as to its accuracy. And as with Shifty Shiff if its all you have reasonable doubt is easy to prove by giving alternate explanations to the hearsay, also since its not aloud in a Court of law there was no evidence for the prosecution to use.
                              In a criminal trial the jury needs to be unanimous not just 2/3 so why should impeachment be higher? Beyond reasonable doubt is the highest threshold to meet and is due to the severity of the outcome as life or liberty is at stake. Impeachment and removal results in losing ones job, why should the standard be higher?

                              What do you think ‘reasonable doubt’ means? And how would you apply it to a set of facts in a case?

                              Comment


                              • Trump loves Modi for his hatred of Muslims.

                                Rep. André Carson, the congressman for Indiana's 7th congressional district and one of only three Muslims in Congress, said that Modi and Trump shared an agenda, and would most likely be ignoring human rights issues on the trip.

                                "Unfortunately, the records of Mr. Trump and Mr. Modi make it clear this will likely not be the case. Both are actively working to re-shape the diverse nations they lead to fit narrow ideas of patriotism and citizenship – to the detriment of historically disadvantaged communities," Carson told ABC News. "One of many examples of these detrimental actions is Mr. Trump's Muslim bans."

                                "Sadly, I expect this visit will reaffirm those close-minded views for both men," he added.
                                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                                “not all there” - you know who you are

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