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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Idiot - according to your own religion the reason why Islam, Judaism or Christianity accepted slavery was because God never forbade slavery until your prophet came along. So blame God.... And I will ask again - was the Bab doing anything immoral by owning a slave? I'll be waiting for your answer.
    Idiot, not that is not the reason. Humanity spiritually evolves through Revelation just as we physically evolves

    The Bab was a Prophet Messiah of a previous Revelation to that of the Baha'u'llah just as Jesus and Muhammod were.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      First you say we follow the mores of the day then you say we resist the mores of the day like the emancipation of women.
      Yes, we follow the social mores of the day. They evolve and vary to a degree from culture to culture over time. But religion has a history of resisting many such changes in the name of religion, the emancipation of women being but one example.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Idiot, not that is not the reason. Humanity spiritually evolves through Revelation just as we physically evolves

        The Bab was a Prophet Messiah of a previous Revelation to that of the Baha'u'llah just as Jesus and Muhammod were.
        Again Shuny, was it immoral for the Bab to own slaves? Yes or no?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Yes, we follow the social mores of the day. They evolve and vary to a degree from culture to culture over time. But religion has a history of resisting many such changes in the name of religion, the emancipation of women being but one example.
          You can't have it both ways Tass, first you say that Christians follow the mores of the day, then you say they resist those mores.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Again Shuny, was it immoral for the Bab to own slaves? Yes or no?
            Spiritual laws do not equate to morality nor ethics. By definition they are social standards of behavior and vary for culture to culture. Tory he Spiritual Laws of the Revelations of God are beyond the diverse and often contradictory morals and ethics of cultures in the History of humanity.

            Revelations Reveals spiritual laws progressively over the history of humanity. The spiritual laws of the Bab did not include a law against slavery. That is a spiritual law under Baha'u'llah. The Bab stated that He was only the Door for the advent of Baha'u'llah, and His Revelation only lasted a short span, and acknowledged the limits of His Revelation. Baha'u''lah's life and actions are witness to His Revelation.

            The problem is you do not believe anything of the Revelations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and you have sidestepped the Fact that the Bible does not have any spiritual law prohibiting slavery, and Many Christians owned, bought and sold slaves and referred to the Bible to justify their actions.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-21-2020, 07:01 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Spiritual laws do not equate to morality nor ethics. By definition they are social standards of behavior and vary for culture to culture. Tory he Spiritual Laws of the Revelations of God are beyond the diverse and often contradictory morals and ethics of cultures in the History of humanity.

              Revelations Reveals spiritual laws progressively over the history of humanity. The spiritual laws of the Bab did not include a law against slavery. That is a spiritual law under Baha'u'llah. The Bab stated that He was only the Door for the advent of Baha'u'llah, and His Revelation only lasted a short span, and acknowledged the limits of His Revelation. Baha'u''lah's life and actions are witness to His Revelation.

              The problem is you do not believe anything of the Revelations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and you have sidestepped the Fact that the Bible does not have any spiritual law prohibiting slavery, and Many Christians owned, bought and sold slaves and referred to the Bible to justify their actions.
              So the Bab was not doing anything wrong by owning a slave. And neither were the other slave owners before that time. Thank goodness that Christians began ending the slave trade in the West before Baha'u'llah came along.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                So the Bab was not doing anything wrong by owning a slave. And neither were the other slave owners before that time. Thank goodness that Christians began ending the slave trade in the West before Baha'u'llah came along.
                This an assumption on your part that is unwarranted that no one in the Islamic world opposed slavery. The following reference describes opposition to slavery in different religions and covers Islam, but like all ancient religions including Christianity many believers owned slaves, because their scriptures lacked a spiritual law forbidding slavery. I cannot copy out of the text, but it is an easy read: http://www.lse.ac.uk/Economic-Histor...renceSmith.pdf



                This abundantly true of Christians. With no spiritual laws against slavery many many Christians owned, bought and sold slaves and justified this based on their scriptures. Your continually avoiding the fact. Baha'u'llah was the first Abrahamic religion to forbid slavery. This remains a fact you choose to ignore.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  You can't have it both ways Tass, first you say that Christians follow the mores of the day, then you say they resist those mores.
                  Christians usually conform to the social mores of the day despite initial resistance in some instances.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    This an assumption on your part that is unwarranted that no one in the Islamic world opposed slavery. The following reference describes opposition to slavery in different religions and covers Islam, but like all ancient religions including Christianity many believers owned slaves, because their scriptures lacked a spiritual law forbidding slavery. I cannot copy out of the text, but it is an easy read: http://www.lse.ac.uk/Economic-Histor...renceSmith.pdf



                    This abundantly true of Christians. With no spiritual laws against slavery many many Christians owned, bought and sold slaves and justified this based on their scriptures. Your continually avoiding the fact. Baha'u'llah was the first Abrahamic religion to forbid slavery. This remains a fact you choose to ignore.
                    What is your point? You said spiritual laws did not forbid slavery until Baha'u'llah. So according to your religion slavery as practiced by Jews, Muslims and Christians broke no Spiritual law. Therefore not a violation or sin. As a matter of fact two manifestations of God, Moses and Muhammad, supported and regulated slavery. Perfectly acceptable.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      Christians usually conform to the social mores of the day despite initial resistance in some instances.
                      Nonsense. Tell me what mores do I or my church conform to? The largest Christian denomination is the Catholic Church, what modern moral values have they conformed to. Be specific.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        What is your point? You said spiritual laws did not forbid slavery until Baha'u'llah. So according to your religion slavery as practiced by Jews, Muslims and Christians broke no Spiritual law. Therefore not a violation or sin. As a matter of fact two manifestations of God, Moses and Muhammad, supported and regulated slavery. Perfectly acceptable.
                        You of course do not accept the progressive revelation and spiritual evolution of humanity as the physical evolution. Then you have a sere problem objecting to slavery based on your scripture. Not mine.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Nonsense. Tell me what mores do I or my church conform to? The largest Christian denomination is the Catholic Church, what modern moral values have they conformed to. Be specific.
                          Abolition of slavery and the emancipation of women - to name just two.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            Abolition of slavery and the emancipation of women - to name just two.
                            Maybe one . . . but not the complete emancipation of women. My family I grew up with are fairly contemporary believers in the Roman Church, but still believes that men rulle the roost, and my sister in law always voted like my brother voted when he was alive.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-22-2020, 09:43 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Maybe one . . . but not the complete emancipation of women. My family I grew up with are fairly contemporary believers in the Roman Church, but still believes that men rulle the roost, and my sister in law always voted like my brother voted when he was alive.
                              Oh certainly. But it's far better than it once was. Nancy Pelosi is an example of a woman who has risen to a senior position over men as a Roman Catholic.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                You of course do not accept the progressive revelation and spiritual evolution of humanity as the physical evolution. Then you have a sere problem objecting to slavery based on your scripture. Not mine.
                                So what? According your own religion slavery was not a violation of Spiritual laws back in the day. But again, I'm glad your Prophet followed the good example of Christian abolitionists.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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