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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Yet Brown believed that the evidence for the physical resurrection was strong. And that the virgin birth was a historical fact. Do you agree with him there?
    I believe in the resurrection, but I wonder about the virgin birth. Miraculous births were a literary genre at the time for great men like Alexander the Great, so it's possible it was tacked on later to add legitimacy to the Jesus narrative. And there is John 7:5 where it says that Jesus' own brothers did not believe in Him. If He had had a miraculous birth, wouldn't it have gotten around to his siblings that something was up with Jesus?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
      I believe in the resurrection, but I wonder about the virgin birth. Miraculous births were a literary genre at the time for great men like Alexander the Great, so it's possible it was tacked on later to add legitimacy to the Jesus narrative. And there is John 7:5 where it says that Jesus' own brothers did not believe in Him. If He had had a miraculous birth, wouldn't it have gotten around to his siblings that something was up with Jesus?
      So too was resurrection, no? Osiris, Dionysis, Tammuz, Attis, Persephone. You actually find that belief in many different cultures. For instance - Odin, Ganesha, Lemminkainen, Krishna, Quetzalcoat.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        And we can show why those objections are not in any way definitive:

        https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/who-wrote-1-peter





        Same with John:

        https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/w...gospel-of-john
        The majority scholarly position re the Petrine epistles and the writings of the Johannine community is definitive. You will always find a contrary minority view based upon your Evangelical agenda if you look hard enough.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Yet Brown believed that the evidence for the physical resurrection was strong. And that the virgin birth was a historical fact.
          Raymond E Brown says that Jesus did not write an account of his life or passion; nor did anyone who had been present write an eyewitness account. The same applies to the virgin birth. Brown believes that ALL the evidence of the Jesus story was filtered through the lens of “four different accounts written some thirty to seventy years later in the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John, all of which were dependent on tradition that had come down from an intervening generation or generations”. (Quote previously cited). This obviously includes the resurrection and virgin birth.

          Do you agree with him there?
          IMO the accounts of the alleged physical resurrection and virgin birth were based upon traditions arising in a gullible age of belief in wonders and miracles, which was commonplace in that era.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            The majority scholarly position re the Petrine epistles and the writings of the Johannine community is definitive. You will always find a contrary minority view based upon your Evangelical agenda if you look hard enough.
            It is not definitive, nor can it be. It is based on very questionable assumptions.
            Last edited by seer; 04-06-2020, 11:31 AM.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Raymond E Brown says that Jesus did not write an account of his life or passion; nor did anyone who had been present write an eyewitness account. The same applies to the virgin birth. Brown believes that ALL the evidence of the Jesus story was filtered through the lens of “four different accounts written some thirty to seventy years later in the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John, all of which were dependent on tradition that had come down from an intervening generation or generations”. (Quote previously cited). This obviously includes the resurrection and virgin birth.
              Yes he believes that is good enough to support the physical resurrection and the virgin birth. You have referenced him more than once as an authority - so why don't you believe him about these?
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
                I believe in the resurrection, but I wonder about the virgin birth. Miraculous births were a literary genre at the time for great men like Alexander the Great, so it's possible it was tacked on later to add legitimacy to the Jesus narrative. And there is John 7:5 where it says that Jesus' own brothers did not believe in Him. If He had had a miraculous birth, wouldn't it have gotten around to his siblings that something was up with Jesus?
                Who knows, remember Joseph did not want this to get round. At first he thought it would have disgraced Mary. Perhaps in that culture it was the wise thing to keep it under wraps. And why do you wonder about the virgin birth?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Who knows, remember Joseph did not want this to get round. At first he thought it would have disgraced Mary. Perhaps in that culture it was the wise thing to keep it under wraps. And why do you wonder about the virgin birth?
                  At first, yes. But why would it have disgraced Mary to have been visited by an Angel of the Lord, to be the subject of publicly witnessed divine signs and wonders, three wise men from the east, etc? I wonder about the birth story because it has all the earmarks of that literary/mythological genre serving such an urgent evangelical purpose at the time and with no later corroboration. But I could be convinced otherwise.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    So too was resurrection, no? Osiris, Dionysis, Tammuz, Attis, Persephone. You actually find that belief in many different cultures. For instance - Odin, Ganesha, Lemminkainen, Krishna, Quetzalcoat.
                    True, but there's more evidence supporting the resurrection than the virgin birth. And you don't see the transformation of an entire community and people gladly going to their martyrdom inspired by the virgin birth.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
                      True, but there's more evidence supporting the resurrection than the virgin birth. And you don't see the transformation of an entire community and people gladly going to their martyrdom inspired by the virgin birth.
                      Hmmm, I don't think so. Afaics, the evidence is the same for both. The Bible. And people will both kill, and go to their death due to their religious fanaticism all the time. Remember 911! Suicide bombers!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        It is not definitive, nor can it be. It is based on very questionable assumptions.
                        Which is basically what we've been trying to tell you about your beliefs...
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
                          True, but there's more evidence supporting the resurrection than the virgin birth. And you don't see the transformation of an entire community and people gladly going to their martyrdom inspired by the virgin birth.
                          Not to mention there are clearly no possible claims of "eyewitnesses" to this event, so it is a handed-down story based on a theology that had evolved 30-70 years by the time it was documented.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            It is not definitive, nor can it be. It is based on very questionable assumptions.
                            Not at all. It is based on the systematic research of the majority of biblical scholars
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Yes he believes that is good enough to support the physical resurrection and the virgin birth. You have referenced him more than once as an authority - so why don't you believe him about these?
                              Raymond E Brown believes, as a leap of faith, that the physical resurrection and the virgin birth are true. But this does not diminish his scholarly opinion that the Jesus story is based upon: “four different accounts written some thirty to seventy years later in the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John, all of which were dependent on tradition that had come down from an intervening generation or generations”.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Not to mention there are clearly no possible claims of "eyewitnesses" to this event, so it is a handed-down story based on a theology that had evolved 30-70 years by the time it was documented.
                                When you say "this event," I assume you're referring to the resurrection? I was referring to circumstantial evidence, such as the textual evidence and the apparent sudden and dramatic effects on the lives of the early members of the community.

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