Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit

[seer]

They “have to do” with patriarchal societies, which are no longer acceptable in the free world. If the patriarch does not want "his woman" to vote or "have a career then he must be obeyed. Her role in such a society is one of submission.

Patriarchal societies are a moral good, after all it was men who gave women the right to vote here in the US.

Any injustice in society is the business of society – as is recognized by many women in the institutions to which you refer. Women in today's society, quite rightly demand equal rights with men. And they are increasingly getting them.

Neither you nor the government has the right to dictate how we organize our Churches.

But one does in practice throughout Christian history, e.g. it wasn’t until 1995 that the Southern Baptist officials formally renounced the church's support of slavery and racial segregation.

What do you mean throughout Christian history? Where was racism practice throughout Christian history?

Your religion recognized forms of slavery for centuries, it tolerated Inquisitions, witch-killing, discrimination against blacks, the subjugation of women and much more that the social mores of today would not tolerate.

Why are the social mores of today correct?

[shunyadragon]

I have no problem, according to your religion God didn't have a problem with slavery either - for three thousand years. It can't be that big of a deal.

I guess it is no big deal for you, because you still believe in and endorse forms of slavery as you selectively define in the Bible, which is very bad clinging to an ancient world view, as Tassman pointed out.

[Tassman]

Patriarchal societies are a moral good, after all it was men who gave women the right to vote here in the US.

Reluctantly and not with good grace. The patriarchal societies long resisted the demands of the suffragettes and the women’s movements worldwide. And they justified this via carefully selected scripture.

Neither you nor the government has the right to dictate how we organize our Churches.

Well there are centuries of female subjugation to overcome. But it’s only a matter of time before women demand equal rights in your church just as they have, quite rightly, demanded and achieved equal rights in most other avenues of society.

What do you mean throughout Christian history? Where was racism practice throughout Christian history?

Endlessly. There were Jewish pogroms instigated by Christians throughout Christian history. Discrimination against Muslims. The violent and murderous destruction of indigenous cultures by the Christian colonialists. And discrimination against blacks in the Southern States of the US until the Civil rights Acts of 1964 brought this to a reluctant close – at least officially.

Why are the social mores of today correct?

They are more inclusive, i.e. fairer, than previously and more compatible with our evolutionary cooperative instincts as a social species. Are you suggesting that Inquisitions, witch-killing, discrimination against blacks, the subjugation of women and the social ills of previous generations of Christians – ALL justified scripturally – are correct?

[seer]

Reluctantly and not with good grace. The patriarchal societies long resisted the demands of the suffragettes and the women’s movements worldwide. And they justified this via carefully selected scripture.

Oh please, "patriarchy" gave us the most free, prosperous nations on earth. Stop being such a nancy boy...

Well there are centuries of female subjugation to overcome. But it’s only a matter of time before women demand equal rights in your church just as they have, quite rightly, demanded and achieved equal rights in most other avenues of society.

Sorry, I will not be lectured by a moral relativist. Where human rights are merely a matter of cultural preferences.

[shunyadragon]

Sorry, I will not be lectured by a moral relativist. Where human rights are merely a matter of cultural preferences.

This sounds like your cultural relativist justification for some kinds of slavery based on Hebrew cultural concepts of human rights.

[Tassman]

Oh please, "patriarchy" gave us the most free, prosperous nations on earth.

Patriarchy also gave us Genghis Khan, your point?

Stop being such a nancy boy...

?

Sorry, I will not be lectured by a moral relativist. Where human rights are merely a matter of cultural preferences.

Social values historically evolve and vary over time - including Christian cultures.

[seer]

Patriarchy also gave us Genghis Khan, your point?

Be grateful for what your forefathers created for you, the freedom and luxury you enjoy today.

Social values historically evolve and vary over time - including Christian cultures.

So values change? So what? And my values track pretty close to New Testament principles. As it is with most Bible believing Christians I know.

[JimL]

No easy answers. Yet we generally have a consensus that things that do physical harm or defraud or things like stealing should be prohibit. When I was growing up though things like adultery, fornication, homosexuality were against the law, even felonies. You could not open a business on Sunday or hunt.

So, do you think the latter things should be against the law? Why or why not?

[JimL]

Religious zealots!

Exactly!

[seer]

So, do you think the latter things should be against the law? Why or why not?

Of course, because they violate God's design for human sexuality.

[Tassman]

Be grateful for what your forefathers created for you, the freedom and luxury you enjoy today.

“The freedom and luxury” we “enjoy today” is a direct consequence of our current cultural values which include input from the women and minority groups that comprise Western society today. We are benefiting from the battles the suffragettes and Civil Rights leaders fought to generate a fairer, more inclusive society.

So values change?

Of course social values change. Demonstrably. We no longer treat women as chattels of men or tolerate racial discrimination etc.

And my values track pretty close to New Testament principles. As it is with most Bible believing Christians I know.

The Christian slave-owners said same – even quoting scripture to prove it. So did the Christian oppressors of women and minority groups. YOUR “values track pretty close to New Testament principles” only as interpreted by the minority Christian group to which you belong. But fear not, “Bible-believing Christian” Donald Trump will enforce your values – he needs your continued support.

Of course, because they violate God's design for human sexuality.

Psychologists say you are wrong and that homosexuality is a normal variant of human (and animal) sexuality. The majority of people in the US and the free world, including Christians, accept this to be the case.

[seer]

“The freedom and luxury” we “enjoy today” is a direct consequence of our current cultural values which include input from the women and minority groups that comprise Western society today. We are benefiting from the battles the suffragettes and Civil Rights leaders fought to generate a fairer, more inclusive society.

That is just stupid, the wealth and political systems that gave rise to Western Civilization is largely due to European men. No diversity necessary.

Of course social values change. Demonstrably. We no longer treat women as chattels of men or tolerate racial discrimination etc.

But racism and treating women like chattel are not New Testament principles.

The Christian slave-owners said same – even quoting scripture to prove it. So did the Christian oppressors of women and minority groups. YOUR “values track pretty close to New Testament principles” only as interpreted by the minority Christian group to which you belong. But fear not, “Bible-believing Christian” Donald Trump will enforce your values – he needs your continued support.

Where does the New Testament speak of oppressing any one?

Psychologists say you are wrong and that homosexuality is a normal variant of human (and animal) sexuality. The majority of people in the US and the free world, including Christians, accept this to be the case.

Sure and rape and pedophilia variants human of animal/sexuality.

[Tassman]

That is just stupid, the wealth and political systems that gave rise to Western Civilization is largely due to European men. No diversity necessary.

Virtually ALL civilizations were patriarchal AND totalitarian absolute monarchies at one time – was that good? The Western societies we enjoy today are both egalitarian and democratic. See the difference?

But racism and treating women like chattel are not New Testament principles.

New Testament principles are historically whatever Christians say they are – women were chattels and blacks were often slaves. And they quoted scripture to prove they were right – just as they do today to justify whatever their current prejudices are. Scripture is very handy when it comes to supporting personal opinions no matter how misguided.

Where does the New Testament speak of oppressing any one?

See above.

Sure and rape and pedophilia variants human of animal/sexuality.

Same ole’ same ole’.

“Rape and pedophilia” are perpetrated against victims unable to give informed consent – unlike mutually consenting adults of the same sex.

[seer]

Virtually ALL civilizations were patriarchal AND totalitarian absolute monarchies at one time – was that good? The Western societies we enjoy today are both egalitarian and democratic. See the difference?

And why is totalitarian rule bad? But the point I was making is that diversity was not necessary to create Western Civilization, nor is diversity necessarily a good. It could in fact undermine social cohesion.

New Testament principles are historically whatever Christians say they are – women were chattels and blacks were often slaves. And they quoted scripture to prove they were right – just as they do today to justify whatever their current prejudices are. Scripture is very handy when it comes to supporting personal opinions no matter how misguided.

Nonsense Tass, again I will ask where does the NT tell us to oppress anyone? Are we not taught to love our fellow man, and to follow the golden rule? Again, what do I believe that is different from the NT writers?

“Rape and pedophilia” are perpetrated against victims unable to give informed consent – unlike mutually consenting adults of the same sex.

Now you are moving the goal posts, you were speaking of variants of human/animal sexuality. Which both rape and pedophilia are. Now you are pointing to consent! You think our primate cousins care about consent? So now you are attaching a moral judgement to natural sexual behavior. Talk about justifying personal opinions!

[JimL]

Of course, because they violate God's design for human sexuality.

So you'd prefer to live in a theocracy?