Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit

[seer]

Raymond E Brown is recognized as a preeminent biblical scholar and his position re the gospels is reflected by Ehrman and the majority of biblical scholars. Namely that what we have with the gospels are “four different accounts written some thirty to seventy years later in the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John, all of which were dependent on tradition that had come down from an intervening generation or generations” - Death of the Messiah. In short, the majority of New Testament scholars agree that there are no eyewitness accounts of the Jesus story, which is what you were claiming.

Indeed, Bauckham is a recognized biblical scholar but even he, despite his best efforts, cannot claim actual eyewitness accounts. The best he can do is argue that the gospels were written by those with access to eyewitness testimony of Jesus' first followers - not actual eyewitness testimony itself. This includes reference to Papias’ claims to have spoken with travelers, who had met some surviving disciples of Jesus. But these, even if genuine, are NOT eyewitness accounts - they are second or third-hand accounts at best.

Even if I accept that, both Brown and Bauckham were Christian and Bauckham made it clear that the New Testament was reliable. And the fact that the Apostle and Disciples were mostly still around when these books were written. They were for the Gospel of Luke and Acts, the Letters of Paul, For Mark and Matthew. So there is no evidence that they were merely handed down by tradition when the followers of Christ were still in the picture as Bauckham makes clear. That is why he says the NT is accurate, and that is the bottom line. Also I referenced the Gospel of John, the letters of John and Peter which do claim to be eyewitness accounts. And I have no good reason to think those accounts were false.

[seer]

Polling has nothing to do with the fact that Trump lost four to six weeks in public denial when he should have been preparing for the worst pandemic in modern times. Consequently, “Today, 86,012 cases have been confirmed across the US, pushing the nation to the top of the world’s coronavirus league table – above even China”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...5npeAXJW3pUPhE

Bull crap. The WHO was down playing the virus too, as was Pelosi. From your link:

It was not until 29 February, more than a month after the Journal article and almost six weeks after the first case of coronavirus was confirmed in the country that the Trump administration put that advice into practice. Laboratories and hospitals would finally be allowed to conduct their own Covid-19 tests to speed up the process.

On Feb 24 Pelosi was in China town telling people to come to China town, the virus was no big deal. The WHO said Trump was wrong - the travel ban was not necessary.

World Health Organization Downplayed COVID-19 Risk At First, Urged Open Borders

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...-open-borders/

[carpedm9587]

Bull crap. The WHO was down playing the virus too, as was Pelosi. From you link:

It was not until 29 February, more than a month after the Journal article and almost six weeks after the first case of coronavirus was confirmed in the country that the Trump administration put that advice into practice. Laboratories and hospitals would finally be allowed to conduct their own Covid-19 tests to speed up the process.

On Feb 24 Pelosi was in China town telling people to come to China town, the virus was no big deal. The WHO said Trump was wrong - the travel ban was not necessary.

World Health Organization Downplayed COVID-19 Risk At First, Urged Open Borders

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...-open-borders/

From your own link...

There is a “huge reason to keep official border crossings open” to avoid people entering irregularly and going unchecked for symptoms, WHO spokesman Christian Lindmeier told a Geneva briefing.

In other words, the WHO was recommending using the legal border crossings as check points for the virus and minimizing the chance that illegal border crossings would spike and worsen the situation.

Meanwhile, there is no question that pretty much everyone minimized the outbreak at the outset. The primary issue is how long that lasted before action was taken. As late as mid-March, Trump and members of the GOP were still downplaying the outbreak. We are at the beginning of April and there is still no national lock-down, still no coordination of medical purchases between states, still the sale of medical supplies needed here to other countries, still no action on using the Defense Production Act (though it has been invoked for close to a couple of weeks now). Heck, until only a few days ago, medical supply companies were still selling their supplies to the highest bidder - pitting the states aganst each other and ensuring that the supplies would go where there was the most money rather than where there was the most need.

It's a mess - and the man at the top cannot put his own ego aside long enough to ensure the right people are in the right places doing the right things. Meanwhile, many of his administration's policy priorities are happening "under the radar" while we're all distracted. EPA has stopped enforcing pollution standards and promised no post-crisis follow-up. Fuel efficiency standards are suspended across the board. The list goes on. And then they point at the Democrats and accuse them of using the crisis to leverage their agenda. It boggles the mind.

[seer]

From your own link...

There is a “huge reason to keep official border crossings open” to avoid people entering irregularly and going unchecked for symptoms, WHO spokesman Christian Lindmeier told a Geneva briefing.

In other words, the WHO was recommending using the legal border crossings as check points for the virus and minimizing the chance that illegal border crossings would spike and worsen the situation.

Meanwhile, there is no question that pretty much everyone minimized the outbreak at the outset. The primary issue is how long that lasted before action was taken. As late as mid-March, Trump and members of the GOP were still downplaying the outbreak. We are at the beginning of April and there is still no national lock-down, still no coordination of medical purchases between states, still the sale of medical supplies needed here to other countries, still no action on using the Defense Production Act (though it has been invoked for close to a couple of weeks now). Heck, until only a few days ago, medical supply companies were still selling their supplies to the highest bidder - pitting the states aganst each other and ensuring that the supplies would go where there was the most money rather than where there was the most need.

It's a mess - and the man at the top cannot put his own ego aside long enough to ensure the right people are in the right places doing the right things. Meanwhile, many of his administration's policy priorities are happening "under the radar" while we're all distracted. EPA has stopped enforcing pollution standards and promised no post-crisis follow-up. Fuel efficiency standards are suspended across the board. The list goes on. And then they point at the Democrats and accuse them of using the crisis to leverage their agenda. It boggles the mind.

You are correct - pretty much everyone minimized the outbreak early on. And just about everyone followed Trump's lead by closing borders and stopping flights. Who knows how many lives Trump's good example will save!

More than nine-in-ten people worldwide live in countries with travel restrictions amid COVID-19

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...amid-covid-19/

[carpedm9587]

You are correct - pretty much everyone minimized the outbreak early on. And just about everyone followed Trump's lead by closing borders and stopping flights.

Well...technically...the first country to restrict travel was China.

Trump started restricting travel on January 31st by refusing incoming travel from China for non-citizens. He then added restrictions piecemeal to get where we are today. And yes, the initial reaction from the left was "racist" and "here we go again." Frankly, I don't blame them. After 4 years of anti-immigration language and action, to assume that this administration was simply taking advantage of the situation to push forward their agenda is a perfectly natural response. And I doubt the administration's decision was free of a dual motivation. This is a seriously corrupt and dysfunctional administration. We've been hearing and seeing that for 3+ years now. Of course, anyone on the inside reporting that has been immediately denounced and flayed in the right-leaning media and by most of Trump's base. That has been the formula: if you cannot destroy the message - destroy the messenger.

The same tactic is regularly on display on this forum.

[seer]

Well...technically...the first country to restrict travel was China.

Trump started restricting travel on January 31st by refusing incoming travel from China for non-citizens. He then added restrictions piecemeal to get where we are today. And yes, the initial reaction from the left was "racist" and "here we go again." Frankly, I don't blame them. After 4 years of anti-immigration language and action, to assume that this administration was simply taking advantage of the situation to push forward their agenda is a perfectly natural response. And I doubt the administration's decision was free of a dual motivation. This is a seriously corrupt and dysfunctional administration. We've been hearing and seeing that for 3+ years now. Of course, anyone on the inside reporting that has been immediately denounced and flayed in the right-leaning media and by most of Trump's base. That has been the formula: if you cannot destroy the message - destroy the messenger.

The same tactic is regularly on display on this forum.

I don't remember China stopping flights from coming in, what I do remember was them allowing flights to go out long after they knew how deadly the virus was (infecting the rest of the world). But like I said I'm glad to see others following Trump's good example - countless lives saved!

[carpedm9587]

I don't remember China stopping flights from coming in, what I do remember was them allowing flights to go out long after they knew how deadly the virus was (infecting the rest of the world). But like I said I'm glad to see others following Trump's good example - countless lives saved!

First, I didn't say they closed their borders - I said they restricted travel. Most of this was done internally. AFAICT, the country to act most quickly and decisively to the border issue was Italy. Within one day of their first case, they closed their borders to all incoming travel from China - no exceptions.

Our first case was January 21st. On January 31st (10 days later), Trump announced restrictions, which took effect on February 2, to non-U.S.-citizens traveling from China, with a list of about 11 permitted exceptions. Then he began adding to the restrictions piecemeal for the next 6 weeks.

So yes, Trump was one of the first to restrict international travel. He was not one of the most effective and closing borders is a minimal effort. Limiting some travel from one country (the most infected) almost two weeks after the infection is detected within our borders doesn't significantly curtail the movement of a virus that is already present in the U.S. So Trump gets a nod - but not much more. And I have seen no evidence that anyone was "following Trump's example." And note that Trump has STILL not done anything to restrict travel within the U.S.

[Tassman]

Even if I accept that, both Brown and Bauckham were Christian and Bauckham made it clear that the New Testament was reliable. And the fact that the Apostle and Disciples were mostly still around when these books were written. They were for the Gospel of Luke and Acts, the Letters of Paul, For Mark and Matthew. So there is no evidence that they were merely handed down by tradition when the followers of Christ were still in the picture as Bauckham makes clear.

Some biblical scholars like Brown are Christians and some like Ehrman are not. But the consensus of mainstream biblical scholars regarding the composition of the gospels is that all four are anonymous. And most scholars agree that none were written by eyewitnesses; a few conservative scholars defend the traditional authorship, but for a variety of reasons the majority of scholars do not accept this view.

As for your claim of eyewitness reporting Bauckham, whatever his views are on the reliability of the New Testament, is unable to support his argument for eyewitness reporting – merely second or third hand accounts and tradition.

Also I referenced the Gospel of John, the letters of John and Peter which do claim to be eyewitness accounts. And I have no good reason to think those accounts were false.

Both the Petrine epistles are pseudepigraphs, i.e. fake. And the Johannine literature is commonly dated c. 95 – 110 CE, which is far too late to be reasonably considered eyewitness reporting; plus there has been considerable scholarly discussion of the actual identity of the author(s).

[Tassman]

I don't remember China stopping flights from coming in, what I do remember was them allowing flights to go out long after they knew how deadly the virus was (infecting the rest of the world). But like I said I'm glad to see others following Trump's good example - countless lives saved!

Trump has put the world at risk with his self-aggrandizing incompetence. "From insufficient testing to a lack of coordination, Trump’s Covid-19 response has been a disaster..."

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...demic-response

[seer]

Some biblical scholars like Brown are Christians and some like Ehrman are not. But the consensus of mainstream biblical scholars regarding the composition of the gospels is that all four are anonymous. And most scholars agree that none were written by eyewitnesses; a few conservative scholars defend the traditional authorship, but for a variety of reasons the majority of scholars do not accept this view.

As for your claim of eyewitness reporting Bauckham, whatever his views are on the reliability of the New Testament, is unable to support his argument for eyewitness reporting – merely second or third hand accounts and tradition.



Both the Petrine epistles are pseudepigraphs, i.e. fake. And the Johannine literature is commonly dated c. 95 – 110 CE, which is far too late to be reasonably considered eyewitness reporting; plus there has been considerable scholarly discussion of the actual identity of the author(s).

There is zero actual evidence that the letters of Peter, especially First Peter, is a "fake." And no the letters of John and Gospel are not too old for some one who lived to his 90s. But my point all along was that there were claims to eyewitness testimony in certain books, that is true. And modern scholarship is always changing... Who knows what they will come up with tomorrow.

[seer]

Trump has put the world at risk with his self-aggrandizing incompetence. "From insufficient testing to a lack of coordination, Trump’s Covid-19 response has been a disaster..."

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...demic-response

No Tass, it was China who put the world at risk!

World Health Organization director praises Trump's leadership in response to coronavirus pandemic

The head of the World Health Organization on Wednesday praised President Trump for his leadership in handling the novel coronavirus outbreak and said the president is "taking responsibility" for leading the United States' response to the global pandemic.

WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said the United Nations health agency has repeatedly called for the heads of state to lead a "whole of government" response to COVID-19 and said Trump was leading by example.

"That's exactly what he's doing, which we appreciate because fighting this pandemic needs political commitment," Tedros said during an afternoon press briefing in Geneva.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/world-...sSycsVFDAItbQA

[carpedm9587]

No Tass, it was China who put the world at risk!

World Health Organization director praises Trump's leadership in response to coronavirus pandemic

The head of the World Health Organization on Wednesday praised President Trump for his leadership in handling the novel coronavirus outbreak and said the president is "taking responsibility" for leading the United States' response to the global pandemic.

WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said the United Nations health agency has repeatedly called for the heads of state to lead a "whole of government" response to COVID-19 and said Trump was leading by example.

"That's exactly what he's doing, which we appreciate because fighting this pandemic needs political commitment," Tedros said during an afternoon press briefing in Geneva.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/world-...sSycsVFDAItbQA

Any claims that praise for Trump on the political stage indicate he is actually doing a good job fail immediately. Trump has made it clear, throughout his term, that he expects obeisance or there are consequences. International leaders have publicly. lavishly praised him and then been caught on mike ridiculing him or disparaging him privately. The parade of "thanks you for your leadership" from the vast majority of those who stand to speak with him in his news briefings is a testament to this dynamic. As I noted before, any leader worth their salt would have long since told co-speakers, "stop with the thanks to me - it's not about me! If you need to express gratitude, thank the people on the front lines and behind the scenes for making things happen." But Mr. Trump just stands there and nods gravely with each expression of obeisance. In fact, it IS all about him. He cannot get through a briefing without making a campaign pitch, or salting the briefing with sound bites normally used at his rallies. In fact, he has found a way to replace his rallies with multi-hour news briefings in which he is center stage.

As for China - yes - they put the world at risk. So too is Trump. More importantly, he has put our entire country at risk. And he has put his own base at risk. There are ten states (as of last night) without shelter-in-place orders, and they are all led by GOP governors who are Trump sycophants. While their infection and death numbers are currently relatively low, they have some of the steepest growth curves in the country. Eventually, they will see significantly more infection and death due to the inaction of their leadership. If the citizens of those states are smart they will recognize this. More likely, the members of Mr. Trump's base, led by Mr. Trump, will cast around for someone else to blame and continue to worship Mr. Trump. But those middle voters...it will be interesting to see what they do. There is no state in the country that can go to Mr. Trump if both the liberals/progressives AND the moderates in that state vote for the Democratic candidate.

[seer]

As for China - yes - they put the world at risk. So too is Trump. More importantly, he has put our entire country at risk. And he has put his own base at risk. There are ten states (as of last night) without shelter-in-place orders, and they are all led by GOP governors who are Trump sycophants. While their infection and death numbers are currently relatively low, they have some of the steepest growth curves in the country. Eventually, they will see significantly more infection and death due to the inaction of their leadership. If the citizens of those states are smart they will recognize this. More likely, the members of Mr. Trump's base, led by Mr. Trump, will cast around for someone else to blame and continue to worship Mr. Trump. But those middle voters...it will be interesting to see what they do. There is no state in the country that can go to Mr. Trump if both the liberals/progressives AND the moderates in that state vote for the Democratic candidate.

How is Trump putting the world as risk? In anyway to the degree that China did? And we live in a Federal system, states are generally responsible for the precautions they need to take. You can't lay that at Trump's door.

Any claims that praise for Trump on the political stage indicate he is actually doing a good job fail immediately. Trump has made it clear, throughout his term, that he expects obeisance or there are consequences. International leaders have publicly. lavishly praised him and then been caught on mike ridiculing him or disparaging him privately. The parade of "thanks you for your leadership" from the vast majority of those who stand to speak with him in his news briefings is a testament to this dynamic. As I noted before, any leader worth their salt would have long since told co-speakers, "stop with the thanks to me - it's not about me! If you need to express gratitude, thank the people on the front lines and behind the scenes for making things happen." But Mr. Trump just stands there and nods gravely with each expression of obeisance. In fact, it IS all about him. He cannot get through a briefing without making a campaign pitch, or salting the briefing with sound bites normally used at his rallies. In fact, he has found a way to replace his rallies with multi-hour news briefings in which he is center stage.

OK so basically the leader of the WHO is lying... Got it...

[carpedm9587]

How is Trump putting the world as risk?

Any actions that lead to unnecessary spread puts the world at risk. Trump's stop/start and intermittent approach to closing the borders put the world at risk. Trump's decaying of traditional relationships with historical allies and cozying up to strongmen put the world at risk. Trump's undermining the Iran deal and giving Iran an easy path to quicker development of nuclear arms put the world at risk. Trump's undermining of NATO and world coordination organizations (like the United Nations) put the world at risk. Trump's failure to manage the crisis well at home, leading to disproportionately more infections in the U.S. than most countries in the world put the world at risk.

In anyway to the degree that China did?

I see no way to make this comparison, and attempting to seems somewhat juvenile to me. Who cares? They both put the world at risk in various ways and both should change what they are doing.

And we live in a Federal system, states are generally responsible for the precautions they need to take. You can't lay that at Trump's door.

And the "buck stop there" is alive in well in Trump-world. Yes - I can. Our federal system has 50 states and a federal level. Trump has an outsized voice in that and the ability/right/responsibility to tackle at a national level those things that impact the entire nation. He also has the bully pulpit - and the 10 governors NOT taking it seriously are all Trump sycophants he could swing with a tweet.

OK so basically the leader of the WHO is lying... Got it...

The leader of the WHO is being a politician. Politicians praise and smile publicly. What they really think comes out privately. When the two align, they really admire the person. When they don't, they don't admire the person. Governors like Newsom have made no bones about their dislike for, and disagreement with, Mr. Trump. But Newsom knows how it works and his first priority is his people (unlike Trump), so he does what is politically necessary to ensure the safety of his people. He knows that failure to giver Mr. Trump the accolades he so desperately wants could harm his people - so he gives Trump the accolades Trump so desperately want. It's called "picking your battles" and its how the world works.

If you'd like to call it lying - so be it. Technically, it is. Only a naive person would expect it to be otherwise, especially with someone like Mr. Trump who is narcissistic to the extreme AND wields great power.

[Tassman]

No Tass, it was China who put the world at risk!

World Health Organization director praises Trump's leadership in response to coronavirus pandemic

https://www.foxnews.com/world/world-...sSycsVFDAItbQA

As spun by Trump’s mouthpiece, Fox. The reality is different as indicated in this BBC Coronavirus fact-check:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51818627