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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit

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  • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    Infidels and libtards are dishonest interlocutors who have no interest in what the Bible teaches about slavery, except to the extent that they can try to weaponize it against believers.
    Regardless what the bible may or may not say about slavery the majority of Christians supported slavery and racism for most of Christian history.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      What are you talking about? The Bible and the Quran did not forbid slavery because according to you God didn't not want to forbid it until Baha’u’llah in the 1800s. And are you saying that it wasn't immoral for the Bab to own a slave?
      What are you talking about?!?!?!?!

      ctually no Revelation is progressive. Your avoiding the biggy, Why did the Bible and the Quran did not forbid slavery, which shots down your argument.?.

      If you believe the Bible is the standard today you should believe slavery is moral and ethical
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        I didn’t tie “liberty” to social cohesion necessarily, I said it was “preferable in terms of moral values and human happiness”.
        You said:Bondage (e.g. slavery) or social discrimination is not conducive to the cohesion of society as a whole...

        That is just false, China is the perfect example...

        Just as moral values are demonstrably “subjective and relative” in your biblical world – the centuries of acceptance and then rejection of slavery being an example.
        No Tass, you already agree that Christians do not necessarily follow the mores of the day.

        And you cannot make the argument that biblical values are objectively better or more correct. The bible can be made to reinforce what the society of the day believes at any given period of history.
        The point is Tass, in my worldview universal moral truths exist, even if we misunderstand them at times. That option is not open to you.

        Some did. Whereas the majority of Christians supported slavery and racism for most of Christian history.
        There you go with your lies again. Prove that the majority of Christians supported slavery and racism for most of Christian history. Or shut up...
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          What are you talking about?!?!?!?!

          ctually no Revelation is progressive. Your avoiding the biggy, Why did the Bible and the Quran did not forbid slavery, which shots down your argument.?.

          If you believe the Bible is the standard today you should believe slavery is moral and ethical
          You did not answer my question Shuny - was it immoral for the Bab to own a slave? And according to you the Bible and the Quran did not forbid slavery because God did not want to end slavery then.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            IT remains a fact that your ignoring the elephant in the room. There is absolutely no spiritual teaching in the Bible that forbids slavery,
            Rubbish.


            (1) Define exactly what you mean by 'slavery'

            (2) Cite all the Bible passages that mention slavery and show that none of them forbid it.


            Be aware that a whole range of statuses and social practices are covered by our translation of ANE concepts with the English word 'slavery'.
            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
              Infidels and libtards are dishonest interlocutors who have no interest in what the Bible teaches about slavery, except to the extent that they can try to weaponize it against believers.
              The scriptures are the factual basis for the evidence of the history of slavery in early Judaism, and Christianity throughout history up until at least until the late 19th century. Name calling and trying to rewrite history does not help your case.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                Infidels and libtards are dishonest interlocutors who have no interest in what the Bible teaches about slavery, except to the extent that they can try to weaponize it against believers.
                There are 'libtard' believers, believe it or not.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  You said:Bondage (e.g. slavery) or social discrimination is not conducive to the cohesion of society as a whole...
                  No, I said there were “preferable” means of achieving social cohesion “in terms of moral values and human happiness”.

                  That is just false, China is the perfect example...
                  Not just China. Christian empires under absolute monarchs were repressive of human freedoms too – your point?

                  No Tass, you already agree that Christians do not necessarily follow the mores of the day.
                  Indeed, they don’t necessarily follow the social mores of the day but they come around eventually. The emancipation of women was resisted by many Christians for a very long time. So was Christian resistance to civil rights for all, especially blacks in many parts of the US - or civil rights to LGBT citizens.

                  The point is Tass, in my worldview universal moral truths exist, even if we misunderstand them at times. That option is not open to you.
                  In your worldview "universal moral truths" vary from era to era. And the bible demonstrably can be made to reinforce what the society of the day believes at any given period of history.

                  There you go with your lies again. Prove that the majority of Christians supported slavery and racism for most of Christian history. Or shut up...
                  The mere existence of slavery in majority Christian countries for so many centuries is sufficient proof given that the legislatures of these countries were under the control of Christians. Most Christians merely accepted slavery as a fact of life. And in parts of the US and elsewhere its abolition and the abolition of racial discrimination was actively resisted by Christians - including by the Southern states of the US.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    No, I said there were “preferable” means of achieving social cohesion “in terms of moral values and human happiness”.



                    Not just China. Christian empires under absolute monarchs were repressive of human freedoms too – your point?
                    Again Tass yousaid that bondage was not conducive to social cohesion And that is false.



                    Indeed, they don’t necessarily follow the social mores of the day but they come around eventually. The emancipation of women was resisted by many Christians for a very long time. So was Christian resistance to civil rights for all, especially blacks in many parts of the US - or civil rights to LGBT citizens.
                    Then stop making the claim!


                    In your worldview "universal moral truths" vary from era to era. And the bible demonstrably can be made to reinforce what the society of the day believes at any given period of history.
                    Really? Tell me what the early Christians believed that I don't - be specific.

                    The mere existence of slavery in majority Christian countries for so many centuries is sufficient proof given that the legislatures of these countries were under the control of Christians. Most Christians merely accepted slavery as a fact of life. And in parts of the US and elsewhere its abolition and the abolition of racial discrimination was actively resisted by Christians - including by the Southern states of the US.
                    You have no idea what Christians generally believed throughout history. Besides it's not like slavery is an objective wrong in your world, just a cultural thing...
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      The scriptures are the factual basis for the evidence of the history of slavery in early Judaism, and Christianity throughout history up until at least until the late 19th century. Name calling and trying to rewrite history does not help your case.
                      But according to you that is because God did not want to forbid slavery until your prophet came along. Blame God, not Judaism or Christianity...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                        Out of all of the things that are morally wrong, how do you know what the civil government should prohibit? There is some overlap between the two, but they are not identical.
                        To judge this, is one of the tasks of the virtue of prudence.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Again Tass yousaid that bondage was not conducive to social cohesion And that is false.
                          Already dealt with several times.

                          Then stop making the claim!
                          The claim stands. Namely, Christians follow the social mores of the day not the other way around.

                          Really? Tell me what the early Christians believed that I don't - be specific.
                          The emancipation of women, which is generally accepted today, was resisted by Christians for most of Christian history.

                          You have no idea what Christians generally believed throughout history.
                          Slavery certainly wasn’t considered morally wrong in Christian countries for many centuries, the laws of the day supported it.

                          Besides it's not like slavery is an objective wrong in your world, just a cultural thing...
                          Slavery was a “cultural thing” in your bible-based world also, your country fought a civil war over it.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                            The claim stands. Namely, Christians follow the social mores of the day not the other way around.



                            The emancipation of women, which is generally accepted today, was resisted by Christians for most of Christian history.
                            First you say we follow the mores of the day then you say we resist the mores of the day like the emancipation of women.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              But according to you that is because God did not want to forbid slavery until your prophet came along. Blame God, not Judaism or Christianity...
                              The Baha'i Faith believes in progressive revelation already explained to you in the past.

                              Too many unanswered questions that you are dodging and not answering concerning slavery.

                              Your avoiding the biggy, the Bible and the Quran did not forbid slavery, which shots down your argument, and slavery was common if not prevalent in Christianity up until the 19th century. Stop trying to rewrite history to justify your agenda.
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-20-2020, 05:48 AM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                The Baha'i Faith believes in progressive revelation already explained to you in the past.

                                Too many unanswered questions that you are dodging and not answering concerning slavery.

                                Your avoiding the biggy, the Bible and the Quran did not forbid slavery, which shots down your argument, and slavery was common if not prevalent in Christianity up until the 19th century. Stop trying to rewrite history to justify your agenda.
                                Idiot - according to your own religion the reason why Islam, Judaism or Christianity accepted slavery was because God never forbade slavery until your prophet came along. So blame God.... And I will ask again - was the Bab doing anything immoral by owning a slave? I'll be waiting for your answer.
                                Last edited by seer; 02-20-2020, 06:18 AM.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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