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Thread: Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The Baha'i Faith actually began in 1844. No bandwagon here, because slavery actually did not end with the Civil War. Forced Penal Servitude remained up to the early 20th century, and slavery remained in other places in the world like India and the Caribbean.
    So slavery was not formally abolished among Bahaʼis until 1873. Like I said you jumped on the bandwagon!

    Baháʼu'lláh formally abolished the practice of slavery among Bahaʼis in the Kitab-i-Aqdas (ca. 1873). The English translation of the relevant section is as follows:

    It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women. It is not for him who is himself a servant to buy another of God's servants, and this hath been prohibited in His Holy Tablet. Thus, by His mercy, hath the commandment been recorded by the Pen of justice. Let no man exalt himself above another; all are but bondslaves before the Lord, and all exemplify the truth that there is none other God but Him. He, verily, is the All-Wise, Whose wisdom encompasseth all things.
    Baháʼu'lláh, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 45)[1]

    In his letter to Queen Victoria, written to her between 1868 and 1872, Baháʼu'lláh had singled out the action of the British government in using its power to stamp out the world trade in slaves for particular commendation.

    We have been informed that thou hast forbidden the trading in slaves, both men and women. This, verily, is what God hath enjoined in this wondrous Revelation. God hath, truly, destined a reward for thee, because of this.
    (Baháʼu'lláh, The Proclamation of Baháʼu'lláh, p. 30)[2]

    In 1844, when the Báb declared his mission, slavery was still very widespread. When the Báb went on the Hajj pilgrimage in 1844, he was accompanied by Quddús and an Ethiopian slave.[3] The family the Báb was born into possessed several slaves: one was his first tutor, and the subject of a eulogy penned by his young pupil/master in later years, crediting him as having raised him and praises him.[4] The Báb was martyred in 1850, at which time he had not abrogated or changed the laws of Islam that permitted and regulated the practice. Slavery was not finally abolished in Iran until 1929.[note 1][5] For comparison though slavery had been abolished in the British Empire as late as 1833,[note 2] it remained legal in the United States until 1863.[note 3]

    Nor was slavery immediately abolished among followers of the Báb and Baháʼu'lláh.

    The household in which Baháʼu'lláh was raised also included a number of slaves. He became the owner of these on the death of his father, whereupon he gave each of them the choice of remaining in his service as free servants, or leaving.[6] saying "How, then, can this thrall claim for himself ownership of any other human being? Nay,…."[7]

    All of them chose to take up their freedom in full and leave his household, except one called Isfan Ḍíyár, who remained a loyal servant, and later a well known follower, of Baháʼu'lláh.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3...th_and_slavery
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  2. #82
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So slavery was not formally abolished among Bahaʼis until 1873. Like I said you jumped on the bandwagon!
    No, Bah'u'llah released his slaves form servitude long before that and established the principle against slavery. The Baha'i Faith did not jump on any bandwagon, because either the Bible nor the Quran ford slavery in any form, and Christian widely bought, sold and owned slave up until the the 19th century.


    Source: https://bahaiteachings.org/bahaullah-frees-the-slaves/


    Professor Saiedi thinks this Tablet could well have been intended for none other than Isfandiyar, the slave held by Baha’u’llah’s father and then freed by Baha’u’llah. An equally strong likelihood exists – that Baha’u’llah wrote this historically significant tablet at a very early date, in the “pre-Babi era” (i.e. prior to May 22, 1844). If so, this tablet could be one of the earliest surviving writings of Baha’u’llah — and one of the world’s earliest emancipation proclamations.

    In a tone remarkable for its humility, Baha’u’llah respectfully addresses Isfandiyar in the tablet, stating that, since all humans are symbolically slaves — “owned” (mamluk) of God — therefore no person can be the owner of another human being. Baha’u’llah further states that he himself cannot be the owner of any one, and this is why Baha’u’llah had set Isfandiyar free. This is the very same reasoning that Baha’u’llah gives in the 1873 passage where he outlaws slavery in His Most Holy Book, the Kitab-i-Aqdas.

    Baha’u’llah’s anti-slavery views may be traced all the way back to 1839 (if not before), when Baha’u’llah liberated the household slaves owned by his father, Mirza Buzurg.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
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    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Yes it was cohesive for the majority, and why is that wrong?
    Bondage (e.g. slavery) or social discrimination is not conducive to the cohesion of society as a whole. Enlightenment thinkers argued that liberty was a natural human right for everyone in society.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post




    The point is Shuny that these Christian abolitionists used Bible principles to make their case.
    Just as Christian slave-owners used “bible principles” to make their case for slave ownership, e.g. Ephesians 6:5-7 NIV: 5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. The bible "says" whatever people want it to say based upon the prevailing social values of the day. If you are going to claim that anti-slavery is a biblical principle you need to explain why slavery was commonplace in majority Christian countries for most of its history.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  5. #85
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    No, Bah'u'llah released his slaves form servitude long before that and established the principle against slavery. The Baha'i Faith did not jump on any bandwagon, because either the Bible nor the Quran ford slavery in any form, and Christian widely bought, sold and owned slave up until the the 19th century.


    Source: https://bahaiteachings.org/bahaullah-frees-the-slaves/


    Professor Saiedi thinks this Tablet could well have been intended for none other than Isfandiyar, the slave held by Baha’u’llah’s father and then freed by Baha’u’llah. An equally strong likelihood exists – that Baha’u’llah wrote this historically significant tablet at a very early date, in the “pre-Babi era” (i.e. prior to May 22, 1844). If so, this tablet could be one of the earliest surviving writings of Baha’u’llah — and one of the world’s earliest emancipation proclamations.

    In a tone remarkable for its humility, Baha’u’llah respectfully addresses Isfandiyar in the tablet, stating that, since all humans are symbolically slaves — “owned” (mamluk) of God — therefore no person can be the owner of another human being. Baha’u’llah further states that he himself cannot be the owner of any one, and this is why Baha’u’llah had set Isfandiyar free. This is the very same reasoning that Baha’u’llah gives in the 1873 passage where he outlaws slavery in His Most Holy Book, the Kitab-i-Aqdas.

    Baha’u’llah’s anti-slavery views may be traced all the way back to 1839 (if not before), when Baha’u’llah liberated the household slaves owned by his father, Mirza Buzurg.

    © Copyright Original Source

    While he may have released his slaves earlier is irrelevant to the fact that it wasn't until 1873 that he banned the slave trade so the Baháʼí were somewhat late to the game. And if you read his statement the only thing explicitly banned was the buying and selling of slaves not the owning of them although he does call it wrong. That means it appears by the 1873 declaration that you could still keep the slaves you had but could not get any more or replace those who died.

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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Bondage (e.g. slavery) or social discrimination is not conducive to the cohesion of society as a whole. Enlightenment thinkers argued that liberty was a natural human right for everyone in society.
    But that is not true, China's whole population, save the political elite, are in de facto bondage. And their cohesion is fine. And where do you find liberty as a right in nature? This is just silly.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    No, Bah'u'llah released his slaves form servitude long before that and established the principle against slavery. The Baha'i Faith did not jump on any bandwagon, because either the Bible nor the Quran ford slavery in any form, and Christian widely bought, sold and owned slave up until the the 19th century.


    Source: https://bahaiteachings.org/bahaullah-frees-the-slaves/


    Professor Saiedi thinks this Tablet could well have been intended for none other than Isfandiyar, the slave held by Baha’u’llah’s father and then freed by Baha’u’llah. An equally strong likelihood exists – that Baha’u’llah wrote this historically significant tablet at a very early date, in the “pre-Babi era” (i.e. prior to May 22, 1844). If so, this tablet could be one of the earliest surviving writings of Baha’u’llah — and one of the world’s earliest emancipation proclamations.

    In a tone remarkable for its humility, Baha’u’llah respectfully addresses Isfandiyar in the tablet, stating that, since all humans are symbolically slaves — “owned” (mamluk) of God — therefore no person can be the owner of another human being. Baha’u’llah further states that he himself cannot be the owner of any one, and this is why Baha’u’llah had set Isfandiyar free. This is the very same reasoning that Baha’u’llah gives in the 1873 passage where he outlaws slavery in His Most Holy Book, the Kitab-i-Aqdas.

    Baha’u’llah’s anti-slavery views may be traced all the way back to 1839 (if not before), when Baha’u’llah liberated the household slaves owned by his father, Mirza Buzurg.

    © Copyright Original Source

    You don't even know if this is correct. So formally it was not ended to 1873. After all the Bab owned a slave Even if it was prior to 1844 there were already Abolitionists in the West at that point. For instance there were US states that abolished slavery in the late 1700s. So Baha’u’llah was just following their good example. In other words he wasn't coming up with anything new.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    While he may have released his slaves earlier is irrelevant to the fact that it wasn't until 1873 that he banned the slave trade so the Baháʼí were somewhat late to the game. And if you read his statement the only thing explicitly banned was the buying and selling of slaves not the owning of them although he does call it wrong. That means it appears by the 1873 declaration that you could still keep the slaves you had but could not get any more or replace those who died.
    IT remains a fact that your ignoring the elephant in the room. There is absolutely no spiritual teaching in the Bible that forbids slavery, and therefore slavery was common in Christinaity throughout history up until the 18th century.

    You are also neglecting the fact that Baha'u'llah release his slaves early and condemned slavery early. By example since he is a Revealer in the Word of God his actions are the Word of God. Guess what we have no evidence that Christ wrote anything down.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

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  9. #89
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    You don't even know if this is correct. So formally it was not ended to 1873. After all the Bab owned a slave Even if it was prior to 1844 there were already Abolitionists in the West at that point. For instance there were US states that abolished slavery in the late 1700s. So Baha’u’llah was just following their good example. In other words he wasn't coming up with anything new.

    Baha'u'llah's actions as a Manifestation of God are his laws and the fact that Baha'u'llah released his slaves early and condemned slavery early. By example since he is a Revealer in the Word of God his actions are the Word of God. Guess what we have no evidence that Christ wrote anything down.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Baha'u'llah's actions as a Manifestation of God are his laws and the fact that Baha'u'llah released his slaves early and condemned slavery early. By example since he is a Revealer in the Word of God his actions are the Word of God. Guess what we have no evidence that Christ wrote anything down.
    Except Christ is the single most influential spiritual leader in human history. Now who is more likely to have the hand of God on him - Baha'u'llah or Christ...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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