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Thread: Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit

  1. #41
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    AFAICT only those whose livelihoods depended on slavery and therefore needed to justify it were supportive of slavery. Even in the South small farmers, who greatly outnumbered plantation owners but had a fraction of their political clout, absolutely loathed it. It was regarded by most people as being at best a necessary evil.
    This is an assertion without documentation. Slavery was not wildly opposed in the South and slavery was common in the North. America's view toward slavery was more pragmatic, when needed, and the effort to separate slave states from non-slave stated reflect a view that many loathed it.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-06-2020 at 08:21 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

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  2. #42
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    How do you know what the majority supported three, four, five hundred years ago? You have polls?
    It was commonplace in majority Christian countries, as you’ve previously acknowledged, and supported by the laws of the day as enacted by Christians.

    That is a complete falsehood - the three specific people that Shuny mentioned were Christians. Please list the Rational Humanists that led the abolition movement in America and the British empire. I will be waiting.
    Slavery was prevalent in Christian countries for centuries before the abolitionist movement. What took them so long. The difference was the influence of enlightenment values. Enlightenment figures influenced ordinary people and legislative values all over the Western world.

    What is it Tass? Either we follow the values of the day or we don't - make up your mind...
    Some Christians have resisted the overall values of the day including the rejection of civil rights legislation values. But they come around eventually (at least nominally) as is evident by the ultimate if reluctant rejection of slavery and the Jim Crow laws of the predominately Christian US southern states.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  3. #43
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    This is an assertion without documentation. Slavery was not wildly opposed in the South and slavery was common in the North. America's view toward slavery was more pragmatic, when needed, and the effort to separate slave states from non-slave stated reflect a view that many loathed it.
    The small farmers hated it for a variety of reasons. One of them was motivated by sheer self-interest, namely that they could not compete against slave labor.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  4. #44
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    It was commonplace in majority Christian countries, as you’ve previously acknowledged, and supported by the laws of the day as enacted by Christians.
    It was common place in most countries mostly among the wealthy. The common man, Christian or not, could not afford slaves. So you have no idea if the majority of Christians accepted it or not.


    Slavery was prevalent in Christian countries for centuries before the abolitionist movement. What took them so long. The difference was the influence of enlightenment values. Enlightenment figures influenced ordinary people and legislative values all over the Western world.
    That is just crap, the Abolitionists did not use enlightenment values, unless those values include God given rights and God created equality. But you did not answer:Please list the Rational Humanists that led the abolition movement in America and the British empire.

    Some Christians have resisted the overall values of the day including the rejection of civil rights legislation values. But they come around eventually (at least nominally) as is evident by the ultimate if reluctant rejection of slavery and the Jim Crow laws of the predominately Christian US southern states.
    You are full of it Tass...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqgC1tqifV8

  5. #45
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    It was common place in most countries mostly among the wealthy. The common man, Christian or not, could not afford slaves. So you have no idea if the majority of Christians accepted it or not.
    And of course there hadn't been slavery in Europe itself (which would have counted as "majority Christian countries") for quite some time before the rise of the abolitionist movements seeking to ban it elsewhere.

    And I'm sure it's just a coincidence that nearly everywhere slavery is still practiced Christianity is not the dominant religion.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  6. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  7. #46
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post

    And I'm sure it's just a coincidence that nearly everywhere slavery is still practiced Christianity is not the dominant religion.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqgC1tqifV8

  8. #47
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    The small farmers hated it for a variety of reasons. One of them was motivated by sheer self-interest, namely that they could not compete against slave labor.
    It is acceptable for the belief of many laborers in the Sout to object to slavery, because of the lack of labor. but not a loathing for slavery for laborers sack. In fact after the reconstruction penal servitude slavery was far to common to replace the lost labor workforce due to the Civil War.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  9. #48
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    How do you know what the majority supported three, four, five hundred years ago? You have polls?
    There is a matter of fact evidence of widespread support use of slavery in the North and the South 300, 400 and 500 hundred years ago among Christians, and in India. and the justification in writings of slavery using Biblical references. No need for polls. Slavery continued after the world as penal servitude to replace lost southern labor up into the 20th century. Historically trends in slavery was based on economical interests.


    That is a complete falsehood - the three specific people that Shuny mentioned were Christians. Please list the Rational Humanists that led the abolition movement in America and the British empire. I will be waiting.[/quote]

    . . .but they matntained slavery abroad in India for economic motivations. It is clear in the USA and the British Empire slavery was maintained when economically valuable.

    What is it Tass? Either we follow the values of the day or we don't - make up your mind...
    Christians were supposed to be the highest standard in an immoral world, and as a matter of fact they were not.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  10. Amen Tassman amen'd this post.
  11. #49
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post



    You are full of it Tass...
    Are you denying that the Confederate States of America fought a civil war to maintain slavery, despite being majority Christian, and subsequently maintained racial discrimination under the Jim Crow laws until being forced by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, to reluctantly abandon these laws?
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  12. #50
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post

    Christians were supposed to be the highest standard in an immoral world, and as a matter of fact they were not.
    No Shuny, Christians are sinners just like anybody else. And I'm not sure why you believe that slavery is immoral.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqgC1tqifV8

  13. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.

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