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Thread: Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit

  1. #151
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Oh stop Shuny, your prophet jumped on the bandwagon long after Christians started the Abolition movement.
    Oh stop seer! There was no bandwagon since slavery was not condemned in the Bible and you yourself do not condemn all forms of slavery. History is a factual witness of slavery in the Christian world.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  2. #152
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Oh stop seer! There was no bandwagon since slavery was not condemned in the Bible and you yourself do not condemn all forms of slavery. History is a factual witness of slavery in the Christian world.
    Idiot, the Christian abolition in the West goes back to the 1700s - bandwagon. And much of the slavery in the West did violate the Biblical principles I listed.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqgC1tqifV8

  3. #153
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Idiot, the Christian abolition in the West goes back to the 1700s - bandwagon. And much of the slavery in the West did violate the Biblical principles I listed.
    Idiot. Some Christians as some rational Naturalist opposed slavery going back to the 1700's, but slavery was still common and prevalent in Christianity up until the mod 1800's and common as penal servitude of domaniently blacks up until the 20th century.

    Remember the Bible did not forbid slavery, and gave guidelines for slavery for foreigners, indentured servitude for Jews.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-25-2020 at 07:19 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. #154
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Which Scriptures are you speaking of as far as the vote is concerned?
    Women were regard as chattels of men and subordinate to them throughout most of Christian history. And scripture was interpreted in such a way as to support their subjugation.

    Ephesians 5:22-24 ...wives should submit to their husbands etc.
    1 Timothy 2:11-15 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent etc.
    1 Corinthians 14:33-35 ...women should remain silent in the churches (and following).
    1 Corinthians 11:3-16 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man (and following).
    Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
    Peter 3:1-6 Wives in the same way be submissive to your husbands (and following).
    Titus 2: 4-5 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands so that no one will malign the word of God.

    Just as scripture was interpreted in such a way so as to support slavery:

    Ephesians 6:5-7 NIV:

    5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people.

    The bible has proven to be very malleable in reinforcing whatever the social mores of the day happen to be.

    I don't see that changing in the Catholic anytime soon, or in my church.
    It will all change just as its support for slavery changed and the attitude among many other Christian denominations has already changed regarding abortion, LGBT rights, racism, women in leadership roles in the Church and contraception.

    I don't think Trump is anything more than a cultural Christian, even so there is forgiveness in Christ
    And yet you regularly defend this thrice-married sinner who boasts about doing unmentionable things to women and pays hush-money to his prostitutes and who has said on several occasions that he's never sought forgiveness for his sins because he has no need.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  5. #155
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Idiot. Some Christians as some rational Naturalist opposed slavery going back to the 1700's, but slavery was still common and prevalent in Christianity up until the mod 1800's and common as penal servitude of domaniently blacks up until the 20th century.

    Remember the Bible did not forbid slavery, and gave guidelines for slavery for foreigners, indentured servitude for Jews.
    Shuny no one forbid slavery back when the Bible was written, and remember Moses, Christ, Mohammed who were manifestations of God according to you did not forbid slavery. Why?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqgC1tqifV8

  6. #156
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Women were regard as chattels of men and subordinate to them throughout most of Christian history. And scripture was interpreted in such a way as to support their subjugation.

    Ephesians 5:22-24 ...wives should submit to their husbands etc.
    1 Timothy 2:11-15 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent etc.
    1 Corinthians 11:3-16 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man (and following).
    Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
    Peter 3:1-6 Wives in the same way be submissive to your husbands (and following).
    Titus 2: 4-5 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands so that no one will malign the word of God.
    What is your point? I have no problem with these.


    Just as scripture was interpreted in such a way so as to support slavery:

    Ephesians 6:5-7 NIV:

    5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people.

    The bible has proven to be very malleable in reinforcing whatever the social mores of the day happen to be.
    Again what is your point? They had rules for slaves and for masters.


    It will all change just as its support for slavery changed and the attitude among many other Christian denominations has already changed regarding abortion, LGBT rights, racism, women in leadership roles in the Church and contraception.
    Nonsense, the largest Christian denomination is the Catholic Church, I don't see them changing soon. Nor will my Church, or our Conference.



    And yet you regularly defend this thrice-married sinner who boasts about doing unmentionable things to women and pays hush-money to his prostitutes and who has said on several occasions that he's never sought forgiveness for his sins because he has no need.
    TDS, you just can't help yourself can you...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqgC1tqifV8

  7. #157
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    What is your point? I have no problem with these.
    Well you may have no problem with this but the suffragettes had a problem with being second-class citizens in the eyes of the law. Just as the women’s movement rejected patriarchal societies - with considerable success. Nowadays many Christian denominations have female clergy, business companies have female CEO’s and countries have female prime ministers and presidents. Is this a problem for you?

    Again what is your point? They had rules for slaves and for masters.
    You may think this is OK but the Western world rejected slavery overall. Furthermore, Martin Luther King and his movement rejected the discriminatory aftermath of slavery just as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 rejected ALL discriminatory practices against ALL citizens.

    Nonsense, the largest Christian denomination is the Catholic Church, I don't see them changing soon. Nor will my Church, or our Conference.
    ALL Christian denominations have changed considerably over time according to the social mores of the day and there is no reason why this will not continue.

    TDS, you just can't help yourself can you...
    So, if one rejects the moral position of the adulterous Trump and his history of lying and sexual aggression one is labeled with TDS. So funny, given that his core support is from Evangelical Christians - what does this say about them?
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  8. #158
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Well you may have no problem with this but the suffragettes had a problem with being second-class citizens in the eyes of the law. Just as the women’s movement rejected patriarchal societies - with considerable success. Nowadays many Christian denominations have female clergy, business companies have female CEO’s and countries have female prime ministers and presidents. Is this a problem for you?
    Nothing in your Biblical quotes deny women the right to vote or have a career. They have to do with how Christian Churches and families are organized. And my Church, as with the Catholic Church, do not allow female pastors. Which is none of your business.

    You may think this is OK but the Western world rejected slavery overall. Furthermore, Martin Luther King and his movement rejected the discriminatory aftermath of slavery just as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 rejected ALL discriminatory practices against ALL citizens.
    No where in Scripture do you find discrimination based on race.


    ALL Christian denominations have changed considerably over time according to the social mores of the day and there is no reason why this will not continue.
    Again Tass, show me where I have changed from earlier Christian beliefs. And remember it was Christian abolitionists who went against social mores of the day...

    So, if one rejects the moral position of the adulterous Trump and his history of lying and sexual aggression one is labeled with TDS. So funny, given that his core support is from Evangelical Christians - what does this say about them?
    It says we prefer Trump to the baby killing Hillary...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqgC1tqifV8

  9. #159
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Shuny no one forbid slavery back when the Bible was written, and remember Moses, Christ, Mohammed who were manifestations of God according to you did not forbid slavery. Why?
    Progressive Revelation
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  10. #160
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Progressive Revelation
    So for three thousand years of Divine revelation God did not see slavery important enough to forbid. Got it, a minor thing.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqgC1tqifV8

  11. Amen Sparko amen'd this post.

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